Tips for wheel/brake selection

[John Bickham]

I'm in the process of welding out my fuselage when weather allows. Been a little to cold and concerned about the post weld cooling rate. Next phase would be landing gear and starting to look at wheel/brake selection.

I've been researching previous threads and any information that I can find. Sure there is more to understand.

Matco has a new wheel assembly for PA-18 type axles with a shorter bearing spacing. It is the WHLWI600XLT-1. These are supposed to be triple piston brakes with the highest torque rating in available in the Matco line (6441 in-lb). These are new and getting the specific information has been a process. The drawback is I would have alter the axle dimension (spacing) for correct fit. Kinda boxes me into Matco.

My other choice is the Grove 66-152. Higher torque rating (7735 in-lb) and gives me the option of bigger tires in the future. My understanding is that Grove is an "experimental" direct replacement for Cleveland wheel/brake assemblies. Is that correct? Dimensions for Grove wheels same as Cleveland?

Would there be any issue using Matco master cylinders with Grove brakes if the stroke and diplacement are the same? I can't see anything unless there is a reliability issue.

I'm leaning heavily toward the Grove 66-152. Just want to check if anyone has any pointers or advice that I should consider.

Thanks for any and all help.

[Glenn Patterson]

John,
We used the Grove 66-154 brake and wheel kit with 6" wheels. It is the equivalent of the Cleveland dual puck brakes used by other builders. They are a nice looking set and the 26" Tundra tires fit on no problem as we built the legs to clear the tires. The axles are exactly as detailed on the BH 4 seater drawings plus the reinforcement recommended in an Engineering change. Grove helped with the selection and the brakes were purchased from Aircraft Spruce. We were not in a position to be able to get a good deal on a used set of Clevelands as everyone thinks that used certified airplane parts are gold and they usually need work. We went shopping. The 66-152 & 66-154 are the same price. The Groves are a quality product. I expect that they are equal or superior to certified equivalents.

The axles can be purchased from ACS and are perfect for the job as well.
Hope that helps,
Glenn
BH727

[whee]

John, Why would you have to alter the axles? I have looked into the Matco wheels/brakes and they seemed like a good option to me. They will need some different axle spacers but that's nothing that would permanently modify the axle. According to the numbers I calculated they would be adequate for even 35" AKB tires, and I checked my numbers against the calculator on the Grove website. The guys a Matco were happy to talk with me, answered all my questions and said they would help with making spacers and even machining a set of wheels for different bearings if necessary.

I'm still undecided; I'll never run 35s but I might run 31s so I want brakes that will handle a bigger tire.

[John Bickham]

Thanks Glenn. I'll look into the 66-154's and give Grove a call. And I did get my axles from ACS. They are slitted and require the round piper axle nut vs the castle nut.

Whee?? Help with name.
Besides the spacer needed for the Matco WHLWI600XLT-1 it looks to me that I would need to lengthen the axle a bit. Axle spacing is 1.90" and bearing spacing is 3.30" for a 5.20" total length. The Bearhawk axle is 5.5" from the brake plate to the end. That only leaves a "fat" 1/4" for the axle nut. Making the axle any longer is not my preference (more stress with length). I know lengthening the axle maybe 3/4" doesn't seem like a big deal. The devil is in the details and the engineering. I am not a structural engineer and I have been known to really stress landing gear.

And you are right about the Matco's being almost able to handle the 35" tires. Went back and checked my numbers - I was plugging in diameter instead of the required and clearly stated radius.
Appreciate the help and suggestions.

[whee]

I email Matco and Geroge got back to me. It sounds like the WHLWI600XLT-1 works with no changes to the axle. I'm going to give him a call tomorrow to find out how much room there actually is. The older 600XLT style had .25" of space for the axle nut but the newer ones I listed have a different spacing and leave more room for the nut.

[Battson]

If there is ANY chance you would want bigger tires in future, I would strongly recommend the Grove option.

I have the same set of brakes with 7,700 in-lbs braking torque, using just 26" tires, and when you really want to stop with a heavy load, I still want more. Anything less would also be hopeless in a 20-25kt crosswind taxiing situation.

Even when extremely lightly loaded, I can give it full brakes. The BH has a naturally heavy tail. You would really have to make a big mistake to tip it on the nose, like applying full brakes when you're almost 100% stopped during a wheel landing [with zero elevator authority left in reserve].

Also, I think Grove always ships brake disc spacers with the double puck brakes, but I would check on that. I recommend having a set of spacers on hand if you ever anticipate using larger tires. P.s. I am not talking about axle spacers.

[whee]

Great info Battson. It's tough to take specs and turn them into real useful info without any empirical data to back it up.

[Battson]

What brake / tire combo did your last Bearhawk have Jon?

[whee]

Single puck groves and 6.00x6 tires. There was no model number on the calipers but I talked to Grove about them and they were pretty sure it was equivalent to kit 60-162. They were adequate and would have worked with 800 tires but that's it. I plan to run 26" GY but want to be able to run 31" without a brake change.

[Glenn Patterson]

Just a follow up on my comment with the Grove 66-154 brake and wheel kit with 6" wheels. Battson said that you may want to use bigger tires. We were in construction so we bought the 26 inch Tundra tires & made the adjustments to the legs to clear the tires. Fits nice & looks good. This will let us land in the rough.

A thought on single pucks over double pucks is that Cessnas of similar size and total weight use double pucks. I think that that all the braking capacity possible is best and it is best to use less pressure with dbl pucks than run out of brakes with singles. There is not much price difference for the safety factor. The dbl pucks share the braking and will not heat up like a single puck so they will last longer.

We used the Aircraft Spruce axles and drilled them for cotter pins to work with the castellated nut. The nut was tightened to give the correct wheel bearing loading then the nut was backed off a bit as turning the nut back will allow some adjustment. The nut was used it as the drill guide with the holes drilled on opposite sides then the drill bit run through both holes to make sure the cotter pin would fit.

Glenn
BH727

[whee]

Guess I'll follow up too. I was looking closely at Matco wheels/brakes but after talking with two guys that both started with Matco and have switched to Cleveland brakes because they are running larger tires I've decided to not use Matco. I was going to use Grove 66-152, but they had a price increase which puts them within a couple hundred $ of ABI 199-62 wheels and brakes which are copies of Clevelands.

[James]

Right, I'll just crash this thread, because it's sort of relevant, and because I posted this elsewhere, but it might have only been looked at by Patrol builders - James


***********************

Everything I know about Cleveland wheels and brakes so far (apologies for listing things that are obvious for old hands):




1) Bearhawk 4place quick-build kits have 1.5” diameter axles


3) If you plan to run anything over 8:00s, you need double puck brakes.

4) Bearhawk supplied axle spacer is 1-5/8” long, and should be welded to the axle (Eric Newton’s manual), or possibly not (Jared Yates). Bearhawk Tips doesn’t say either way.

5) Cleveland IPB parts catalogue is AWBPC0001-15(USA)

6) Cleveland offer “wheel assemblies”: (e.g. 40-75D), these aren’t part numbers, they are designators for assemblies that have various combinations of hubs and brake discs.
Cleveland also offer “brake assemblies” (e.g. 30-52N), for various combinations of brake calliper and torque plates.

7) Cleveland combine these wheel and brake assemblies to form “kits”, eg 199-60. There are so many kits, brake and wheel assemblies, because Cleveland offer specific conversions for dozens of different certified aircraft, e.g. Cessnas.

The 199-60 kit (= 40-75B + 30-52) is only suitable for 6.00x6 tyres, which are suitable for most formed strips, but not for rough bush strips.
The 199-62 kit (= 40-75D + 30-52N) is suitable for tyres 6.00x6 up to 8.50x6 tyres, which will cover most backcountry flying, but not improvised landing areas with big stones, ruts etc. Above 8.50, you need special kits, e.g. alaskan bushwheel kits.

The 199-60 and 199-62 conversion kits share most common parts, but the torque plates and brake discs are different.

199-60
Disc 164-01501
Torque Plate: 075-01500

199-62
Disc 164-13601 This disc is deeper than the -01501, so that the rim sits further away from the hub, giving more clearance for wider tyres.
Torque Plate: 075-05401 These torque plates have longer lug bushings, which permits more guide bolt engagement when using deeper brake discs.

According to Jared Yates, the torque plate hole layouts are common between the various kits (UNCONFIRMED), so you can possibly retro fit either kit to a MLG that has already been drilled off.

8) The standard guide bolts ("anchor bolts") used with both the 30-52 and 30-52N calipers are the 069-00400.
It is 7/16" diameter, has a smooth shaft of 1-3/4", and an overall length of 2-3/8".
It seems that Alaskan Bushwheels offer the ABI-69-01900 pin, which is 2.695" long, permitting more engagement in the torque plate lugs ($31 each).
This may allow you to use the short lug 075-01500 torque plates with a spacer between disc and wheel hub (UNCONFIRMED).

see as well - https://www.shortwingpipers.org/foru...=10&page=4


9) There's not a lot of space on the MLG flange when drilling off your torque plate holes. Cleveland offer a bushing kit 145-01000, to fit 5/16” bolts to the 3/8” holes in the torque plates. These tiny rings of metal sell for $28.60 USD on ACS. Each. I found out how to make my own.


Ok, that's what I have so far, people out there who know more than I do, please chip in and correct any errors! :-)

James

[Bcone1381]

You have cataloged a lot of info about fitting the Cleveland products to our axles! I'm sure there are lots of Cleveland parts out there to build up a suitable setup for the Bearhawk.

For what it is worth, I found it very was pretty easy to call Grove Brakes and Wheels and tell them what I had. Everything fit real nice. I'd do it again. But, I've wondered if the 8 inch wheel might be the way to go with the trend towards big tires these days.

[Russellmn]

Bcone, I'm a ways off from looking at this seriously, but right now I'm planning on going straight to 10" wheels and 31" Dessers. I'll be shopping around a lot to get the biggest brakes I can fit.