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  • #16
    No, chrome rings are for steel cylinders. Impossible to break in chrome on chrome. Russ Erb bought what was supposedly a freshly overhauled engine. He had immediate problems with it during test flying. Going on memory here but had several problems including the wrong rings. Russ never revealed who he had acquired the engine from. I feel so fortunate to have a local highly experienced engine builder and having been able to participate in the rebuild. Just want to add that even the most respected engine rebuilders occasionally make mistakes. Thankfully that is rare, really tough if your engine is one of the mistakes.
    Last edited by rodsmith; 01-07-2022, 10:57 AM.

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    • David Weber
      David Weber commented
      Editing a comment
      I know who Russ bought the engine from. I purchased one also. However, I am not at the stage of starting the engine, but the log books reflect it was overhauled properly and signed off. Now here is the kicker, about four years after I bought the engine, the Seller, who was recommended by Budd Davison when he worked for Mark, called me and said he was very sorry about the Russ engine and told me that if any thing is wrong with my engine, he will make it good. The Seller told me that he is still in business, knows that safety comes first, and does not want to take advantage of anyone knowingly. Time will tell.

  • #17
    My Bob engine delivery date got moved forward yesterday (Mike Called to see if February was ok for me) and I emphatically said yes.

    195hp O-360 that is tuned to MoGas!!!

    Bring it on
    N678C
    https://eaabuilderslog.org/?blprojec...=7pfctcIVW&add
    Revo Sunglasses Ambassador
    https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCQ0...tBJLdV8HB_jSIA

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    • zkelley2
      zkelley2 commented
      Editing a comment
      Angle valve?

    • Utah-Jay
      Utah-Jay commented
      Editing a comment
      zkelley2 yes, it is an angle valve O-360

  • #18
    RTV anywhere it can get inside the engine is not accepted practice in aviation anywhere.

    If you have RTV sealing the "filter", I'd very carefully remove the filter housing, very carefully remove the RTV so it doesn't fall in, and put an appropriate gasket and aviation gasket sealant on it.

    RTV clogs oil passages and it does break off.
    It wasn't sealing the filter as such, it had been trapped by the filter inside. Hopefully we got the last of it out now. I'm going to check the filters again soon to be sure.
    Nev Bailey
    Christchurch, NZ

    BearhawkBlog.com - Safety & Maintenance Notes
    YouTube - Build and flying channel
    Builders Log - We build planes

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    • Viking
      Viking commented
      Editing a comment
      Hey Nev, after reading this post as well as your previous post on this topic, I have a couple questions. When you say that you found RTV in your “rock catcher” filter, are you referring to the oil suction screen in the oil sump? Or the oil screen on the accessory housing? Hopefully you’ve already done this, but if you find particulate in the oil screen or spin on filter on your accessory housing, you should immediately (as in before further flight) check the oil suction screen on the sump as well. Hopefully you don’t find anything to cause any more concern, I just got to thinking about the terminology, which made me wonder which screen the RTV was found in, which made me wonder if you checked the other one as well. I have seen clogged oil suction screens in the sump cause oil starvation issues before, and the owners of the engines didn’t even know there was a screen in there that they should have been looking at.

    • Nev
      Nev commented
      Editing a comment
      Viking - thanks for your comment - I was referring to the oil screen on the accessory housing around the Vernatherm valve. We also checked the oil suction screen in the sump and that was clean fortunately. We then checked a few hours later and found them largely clean, and I'll do a repeat check again in a few more hours.

    • Viking
      Viking commented
      Editing a comment
      Ok, that’s reassuring. I figured you would have most likely checked both, I just wanted to make sure that one of them didn’t get missed.

  • #19
    Isn't Lycoming Service Instruction No. 1125D valid for specific use of approved RTV crankcase sealant? Alternate Crankcase Parting Surface Sealants.pdf

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    • #20
      RTV is a very generic term covering a lot of sealants and it is certainly not all the same.

      The sealant called out for the case halves is a thin liquid when applied and (IIRC) only "sets up" between the flange surfaces, critically without spacing the surfaces apart.

      It is not the same as the RTV that typically comes to mind associated with automotive use(I.E. more like a "paste" that turns into a rubber caulk when it sets up.) This type of RTV is frowned upon because it requires very careful application to make sure it doesn't "ooze" into the interior and set up(only to fall off into the engine later and plug up oil passages)

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      • #21
        It now makes sense, especially after reading the Lycoming bulletin. I wonder then why they're not using the approved methods when there's a large downside to it. Unfortunately it's not an easy thing to inspect the workmanship, and not easy to fix either, hence a huge amount of trust involved, particularly when we order these products abroad and have them shipped to our own countries. I've gone to a lot of trouble and care with my Bearhawk build to ensure that I've used the very best practices and approved products throughout, so this is disappointing to discover.

        I've already had a product recall on my EMag ignitions, and was very happy with the outcome. While it was inconvenient, they paid for the shipping and I had a new set back in two weeks.

        Same with my Vetterman exhaust which didn't clear the cowling. He made a new set and shipped it to me. Again, it was inconvenient, but no complaints at all, only a solid after sales experience to pass on to others.
        Nev Bailey
        Christchurch, NZ

        BearhawkBlog.com - Safety & Maintenance Notes
        YouTube - Build and flying channel
        Builders Log - We build planes

        Comment


        • Nev
          Nev commented
          Editing a comment
          I've had a couple of people PM and ask about my EMag experience. I've currently got 40 hours on the aircraft, and I've rarely thought about the Emags, which is to say they're great and working very well. Timing them is very simple. These are the six cylinder ones which were released about 18 months ago. I like the fact that they've got built in redundancy, and Brad has been very helpful in all regards.

      • #22
        Originally posted by Nev View Post
        It now makes sense, especially after reading the Lycoming bulletin. I wonder then why they're not using the approved methods when there's a large downside to it. Unfortunately it's not an easy thing to inspect the workmanship, and not easy to fix either, hence a huge amount of trust involved, particularly when we order these products abroad and have them shipped to our own countries. I've gone to a lot of trouble and care with my Bearhawk build to ensure that I've used the very best practices and approved products throughout, so this is disappointing to discover.

        I've already had a product recall on my EMag ignitions, and was very happy with the outcome. While it was inconvenient, they paid for the shipping and I had a new set back in two weeks.

        Same with my Vetterman exhaust which didn't clear the cowling. He made a new set and shipped it to me. Again, it was inconvenient, but no complaints at all, only a solid after sales experience to pass on to others.
        Out of curiosity, is there not an engine shop in NZ? I'd think it'd be cheaper that way than paying shipping across the planet. Maybe not?

        Comment


        • Nev
          Nev commented
          Editing a comment
          Yes there is. I was living in Hong Kong when I ordered my engine and went on the reputation from the forum. Now living in NZ again I now know of several reputable engine shops. Actually there's a guy who lives nearby, an aircraft engineer with a car racing background who has supplied several engines to friends with apparently very good after sales service. Unfortunately I didn't know of him at the time. There's also several larger established companies that service the GA and aerial work sectors.

        • Battson
          Battson commented
          Editing a comment
          Bob was able to undercut the prices of local shops considerably, at the time I did my research into engine purchases. The local shops are all setup for certified work and price accordingly. Shipping around the world was not expensive until very recently...

      • #23
        Originally posted by Nev View Post
        It now makes sense, especially after reading the Lycoming bulletin. I wonder then why they're not using the approved methods when there's a large downside to it. Unfortunately it's not an easy thing to inspect the workmanship, and not easy to fix either, hence a huge amount of trust involved, particularly when we order these products abroad and have them shipped to our own countries. I've gone to a lot of trouble and care with my Bearhawk build to ensure that I've used the very best practices and approved products throughout, so this is disappointing to discover.

        I've already had a product recall on my EMag ignitions, and was very happy with the outcome. While it was inconvenient, they paid for the shipping and I had a new set back in two weeks.

        Same with my Vetterman exhaust which didn't clear the cowling. He made a new set and shipped it to me. Again, it was inconvenient, but no complaints at all, only a solid after sales experience to pass on to others.
        Nev. if you note in the service instruction they only approve GE RTV 102 (which is white in color) and Lactate 515 (which is purple in color) for sealing the case sections where there is not a gasket. I am surprised your engine has red RTV anywhere. I would check with your overhauled about that. While these are experimental aircraft, I would expect any overhaul shop would follow the service letters that we would follow for certified aircraft.
        John Snapp (Started build in Denver, CO) Now KAWO -Arlington Washington Bearhawk Patrol - Plans #255 Scratch built wing and Quickbuild Fuselage as of 11/2021. Working on skinning the left wing! -Ribs : DONE -Spars: DONE, Left wing assembly's: DONE., Top skins : DONE YouTube Videos on my building of patrol :https://m.youtube.com/user/n3uw

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        • Nev
          Nev commented
          Editing a comment
          Thanks John. I've now done two oil changes and the second one showed no silicon in any of filters. It seems to be trending in the right direction, so I'm going to do another filter check in a few hours and if all looks good then I'll run it as I would with any other engine with the usual precautions and health monitoring. But yes, it was certainly a surprise to see this and I suspect it's not limited to just Grants and mine but might be in common use by the engine rebuilder.

      • #24
        This was is the contents of my scavenge filter. My engineer wasn’t happy with it either.
        Attached Files

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        • Viking
          Viking commented
          Editing a comment
          Wow… that’s not good at all. I’m glad that your flight ended without greater issue! Red RTV like that has no business being used in areas where it could possibly get into the circulating oil. Unfortunately though, I can’t say that I’ve never seen it used like that before. I’ve also seen engines built up with incorrect parts. Some through negligence, and some due to honest mistakes.

          I’m really sorry to hear about your misfortune, and also really sorry to hear about how the problem has been handled so far. I respect the way you have approached this post, and I agree with others here that in the end, it’s important for safety that people are allowed and encouraged to discuss their poor experiences along with their good ones. This open discourse is exactly what allows a design to evolve for the better. There is a tremendous wealth of knowledge on these forums, and it would be a terrible shame to not foster an environment where people could discuss their fortunes and misfortunes, successes and failures for the benefit of the group.

          This post hasn’t affected my decision making one way or another, as I’m building my O-360 myself, but if I had recently bought or ordered an engine from ANY rebuilder, I’d want to know about any and all recent field service issues.

        • rodsmith
          rodsmith commented
          Editing a comment
          Having participated in my engine rebuild, I know there was no RTV used. The case was sealed with Lycoming's prescribed sealant (don't know the name) and silk thread. I asked about having Lycon machine the case for an O-ring and my engine builder said it was a waste of money, because done properly the silk thread goes to overhaul without a case leak.

      • #25
        Viking, Agreed there is a lot of evidence around the importance of Just Culture in safety management.

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        • #26
          Favorite signature line I've ever seen on forums is from a business owner in the rock crawling/off road world. "Every business makes mistakes, it's how you correct those mistakes that defines you".
          https://www.youtube.com/user/fastfox23
          Patrol plans #398

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          • svyolo
            svyolo commented
            Editing a comment
            I couldn't agree more. I have more experience in the marine world than aviation, and I was shocked at the awesome customer service by 99% of the vendors (not the service providers). So far the aviation side has been pretty good. Not quite as good as the marine industry, but pretty good.

            I feel bad for the starter of this thread, and Bob. I wish they could have found a agreeable solution. I won't take sides because I don't know enough.

          • Bissetg
            Bissetg commented
            Editing a comment
            100% correct

        • #27
          At the outset of this journey I said that I could live with the mistaken installation of chrome rings in chrome bores so long as there was acknowledgement and remedy. I'm pleased to say we have got there.

          It’s taken 6 months but, the end result is that Bob and I have reached an outcome. While I’m out of pocket on significant costs associated, I think the outcome is as good as it’s going to get for both parties and most importantly we can look each other in the eye, shake hands and move on.

          There are some learnings from this experience that I think are worth sharing.

          I came to Bearhawking from a background of 40 years of GA, almost entirely in the certified world. This undoubtedly colored my expectations on entry into the Experimental world and, in hindsight perhaps in an unhelpful way.

          After talking to Bob initially I ordered a Lycoming 200 HP 0360 A1EXP Overhauled to new tolerances. In my head I was expecting a freshly overhauled Lycoming engine.

          When my engine arrived the starter was seized, and the carb was unserviceable, I was disheartened having assumed that the engine would have been test run and the accessories tested before shipment. That was an incorrect assumption based on my experience in certified world.

          Despite what was in my head this wasn't a Lycoming engine, it was a Bob engine built of Lycoming and others parts, and there’s nothing wrong with that, but it is different to the many Lycoming motors I’ve operated after Overhaul before.

          I was very fortunate to have a wealth of experience and knowledge available to me in the form of licensed aircraft engineering resource to help, advise, and guide me with the build, and man did I need it. The down side was that without exception these fellows advised me to remove the rock catcher oil filter and replace it with a paper pressure filter. This is something that I understand that other purchasers of Bobs engines have done too. It’s really important that you don’t, at least not without Bobs approval.

          The reason wasn’t clear to me, but it is now. The rock catcher filters all the oil, the pressure filter and cooler are bypassed until the oil warms up. If your engine has been run already as a Lycoming factory supplied engine, that initial running part has already been done and any problems identified. Despite well meaning contrary advice from my very experienced and well qualified buddies from certified world I would say for Bobs engines you should consult with Bob and follow his instructions implicitly before making any changes to configuration.

          The reality is that if the rings were the correct ones I’d be cheerfully flying my Bearhawk with my Bob engine, instead I'm cheerfully flying it behind a Lycoming factory Overhauled engine out of a Cherokee Arrow.

          It’s fair to say Bob and I have both had to swallow a dead rat on this one, and that we have, and are now moving forward to enjoy the magnificent thing that Bearhawking is.

          Comment


          • svyolo
            svyolo commented
            Editing a comment
            One of my favorite quotes is, "the best outcome is everyone is happy. The second best, is everyone is a little bit unhappy."

          • Bissetg
            Bissetg commented
            Editing a comment
            As usual, you hit that nail on the head.

        • #28

          Safety is paramount. I am sure we all agree. Reporting information about vendors or suppliers, both good and bad information, should be done by all.

          In or about 2005, Scott Tail wheels decided to change some of their production to China. I was messing with my tail wheel, and the part you attached the spring to bent like solder when I rigged it up and played around with the pedals.

          I called Scott and was told I was the first to report it. They called back a few weeks later and told me my new part was on the way, and YES, they had a new supplier that made the bad parts. I then asked why a reputable company like Scott did not catch the error via testing. The guy I talked to said, "I don't know but someone is in trouble." Back then we had Yahoo Groups and I reported the problem. Other Bearhawkers had the same bad part.

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          • #29
            Yesterday I removed my PMags to do a Service Bulletin check. It was relatively easy and no PMag issues. After 230 hours they're running well and I'm very happy with them so far. The factory support is also exceptionally good.

            While reattaching them to the accessory case I noticed significant play on the left drive bearing. My engineer was able to easily remove the whole piece by hand. We discovered that the bearing was completely worn out. Fortunately I was able to purchase the replacement bearing locally, and an hour later had it reassembled and back running with the help of my engineer.

            I was a little disappointed to have the bearing in this condition after such short time in service, and lucky to discover it before the bearing had failed completely.

            CCD330F6-C5CC-4041-AB8B-59F7CE44FB53.jpg



            Nev Bailey
            Christchurch, NZ

            BearhawkBlog.com - Safety & Maintenance Notes
            YouTube - Build and flying channel
            Builders Log - We build planes

            Comment


            • #30
              +1

              One of my bearings (as above) was sloppy after just a few hundred hours service, and needed to be replaced - this was almost 8 years ago. I did post on the forum about it, at the time.

              I have been advised that sloppy mag drive gears can cause a wide range of issues in the ignition system, especially in these electric ignition systems like we are both running.

              I have had those mag drive gear parts in and out so many times it's not funny, because they are somewhat stressful to re-install and remove with the risk of the rubber dampeners falling into the engine. I have had to fish one out, on one occasion. More details available on request.

              Remember to put lots of thick grease on the dampners when reinstalling, so they don't fall into the engine case.

              Be happy the bearing came out easily, sometimes they get stuck and worst case the whole job becomes enormous...
              Last edited by Battson; 06-21-2023, 09:29 PM.

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