Non Chinese 4130N

[Robert440]

Just got through talking to Martha at TW metals. If anyone is looking for Non Chinese 4130N tubing they apparently have it. Per Martha: "Most of our 4130 is either Benteler (German mill) or Plymouth (domestic). If you do not want Chinese you need to tell us. We do stock a little Chinese if you would like it. The majority is Benteler".

[John Massaro]

A little off topic but some related history...

It's funny to me to see the current issue of Chinese made materials.

Many years ago, in the mid 70's, I worked in the sales department of one of the the predecessors of TW, Tubesales. The other part of the TW was Williams and Company. Tubesales and Williams were in direct competition with each other in many markets back then. This was especially true in the 4130 and other aircraft alloy tubular products. As odd as this may sound, back then in the commercial distribution of airframe quality 4130 tubing places like Wicks, WAG Aircraft Spruce and Dillsburg weren't even a consideration as competitors. If I recall correctly. way back then Dillsburg was a customer handled out of our Philadelphia sales office.

Where I was in the New England district sales office we dealt directly with Sikorsky, Pratt and Whitney, Hamilton Standard, General Dynamics Electric Boat and ship building and the like, as the Viet Nam war was still stoking the US economy at the time. There were specific contingencies that ALL materials, 4130, stainless, carbon steel, aluminum had to be "U.S Made".It was a very competitive business with other distributors all vying for the relatively large orders that these defense based companies could and would place.

China wasn't even an issue, as it didn't exist in this market back then. Japan, Germany, Israel yes but not China.

Back then insofar as US manufacturers of 4130 air frame tubing there was basically Pacific Tube (PATCO) that closed in 2001, Dial Tube (still in business), Michigan Seamless Tube who later became Quanex, and Plymouth Tube.. Timken, yes the bearing company, was and still is into the manufacturing of larger O.D, thicker wall chrome molly alloys, but not the typical air frame sizes that are generally considered to be O.D.'s <2 1/2" and wall thicknesses <.1/4".

So far as the distributors like TW (Tubesales and Williams), their competitiveness with each other as distributors came as a result of how large an order they gave the tubing manufacturer and thus obtaining a varying quantity discount.The distributor who bought 10,000 ft of a size paid more/ft than say the one who ordered 25,000ft of the same size. The tube mills actually based the price breaks, discounts, on how many pounds of metal was ordered which equated to a price per foot in the end.

Back to topic...

Personally, I wouldn't put one ounce of anything, in ANY device or mechanism that my life, and or those of my loved ones, depended on, that came from China if I could at all help it. Yes, yes I know, there are those parts of automobiles that no doubt come from there, but like I said, if I could at all help it.

Sorry if it looks like a thread hi-jack as it was truly not meant to be.

(as he waddles off, making quack, quack sounds...)

[Robert440]

Hey John,
Thanks for the story. I'm with you on trying to stay away from the Chinese made materials. I've been working the electrical trade since I got out of the aviation sector in 1992. About 8 years ago I worked on a project that entailed installing 500K generators on grocery stores. The contract was rather large and the company manufacturing the gensets (name rhymes with Mat) decided they couldn't provide the units fast enough so they subbed them out to China. The first unit we installed suffered a catastrophic fan blower failure soon after installation. The fan blower on these units were cast iron and weighed quite a bit. The genset was pulled and replaced. A couple of weeks later a second unit failed and threw large chunks of cast iron through the side of the unit into the parking lot. Not a good thing! Turns out that the Chinese were using inferior metal to cut costs because the U.S. company didn't spell out what type of metal to use! This was a very dangerous situation and the U.S. company was forced to reinforce the blower sections of the containment housings with plywood until the defective units could be repaired! So I think that I'll stay away from the Chinese metals!
As for Wicks; I have an airline pilot friend who goes to their store. So I had him ask about any reported problems with the Chinese 4130. He said they were sort of gruff when he asked and they just shot back that it all meets specs! My question is whom is doing the inspecting?
Robert Holt
4PL SN:982

[John Massaro]

Right on about the inspection and quality assurance deficiencies with many items from China. There are countless stories of how they just don't give a S41T because they know that there is never anything going to be done in terms of a lawsuit.

That is why I would strongly recommend that each and every order of any material to a particular specification be it chrome molly, aluminum, etc, in any form,that anyone places on any supplier, comes with ORIGINAL MILL TEST REPORTS. DO NOT accept a document on the supplier's letterhead that supposedly was transcribed from the mill paperwork.Every legitimate supplier gets original mill test reports from the mill and has them on file. THERE ARE NO EXCUSES FOR NOT HAVING THE "ORIGINAL MILL TEST REPORTS" ON FILE, ONLY EXCUSES WHY THEY DON'T WISH TO PROVIDE THEM. Red flags at this point should be blinding you.
Now, with that having been said, when the material arrives take the time to check the "heat number" on the original mill test report against the actual "heat number" that should be stenciled on the material. The "heat number" is how the mill can trace and track a particular batch of metal that was used in making whatever form you purchased.
But wait, and here's the kicker, for around $2000, anyone can purchase a machine to make a stencil that when painted onto the material, with the original stenciling cleaned off in seconds with lacquer thinner, looks like it came from the factory made to the correct spec. I do not know of any instances where material was "up spec'd" but I do know for a fact that it was "down spec'd" at times to meet a particular client's engineer's design parameters. No danger or harm to anyone, and I'm not saying it was the right thing to do, but to the management in place at the time they thought it was an important enough customer that it was worth selling the tubing at a loss, with the lesser spec stenciling, to maintain their relationship with us.
So, if some unscrupulous individuals really wanted to make some money, they could buy non spec material for a fraction of the cost of the spec material, change the stenciling on the material(up spec it) to match a copy of some original mill test report that they have that states the correct specifications, and sell it as such. Even worse, they could buy plain old mild steel and stencil it as chrome molly (4130) with all the specs. All they'd have to do is buy a minimum quantity of a size and request the original mill test reports and off they'd go. Buy the stencil cutting machine and re-stencil the no spec material to match the heat number on the original mill test reports they bought and, well, Get the picture?

The point in all of this is...BUY FROM REPUTABLE DISTRIBUTORS.
Insist on the original mill test reports and nothing less.
Check the heat number on the test reports and that it matches the stenciled heat number on the material.
Check that the specifications that you called out for appear on the test report and the material.

What I have just shared is based on first hand experience from having worked in the metals distribution industry as an inside sales person, just like the one's you talk to on the phone today.

In the end a few dollars saved on the "buy", could ultimately mean your untimely "bye bye".

[Robert440]

John,
That's some great info that I'll have to put to use when it comes time to buy supplies!