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Canadian Rules six seater bearhawk
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Hey Michael
I was just about to respond saying that you can't have more than 4 people in a homebuilt in Canada when I thought I had better confirm that. Imagine my surprise when I found this about the exemption to CARS 549.01:
The purpose of this exemption is to permit persons who apply for a special certificate of airworthiness in the amateur-built classification:- to contract for professional assistance in the construction or assembly of parts of the aircraft, provided the work is subject to the builder’s overall control;
- to import, register and operate in Canada foreign-built amateur-aircraft, subject to a Transport Canada inspection of the aircraft; and
- to not have to comply with the maximum permissible take-off mass (weight) and the maximum number of passenger seats requirements.
I guess I'm behind the times.... qu'elle surprise :-)
If you put a big 540, especially an injected one, and a CS prop, I don't think you will need to move the engine out further, the airplane will be pretty nose heavy as it is. Also, the more you push that nose out, the more directionally unstable the airplane becomes. You can do a search on these forums on this as I remember this discussion coming up in the last year or so.
Cheers (from outside of Ottawa)
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Mark
Maule M5-235C C-GJFK
Bearhawk 4A #1078 (Scratch building - C-GPFG reserved)
RV-8 C-GURV (Sold)
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I can't help with the Canada question but it looks like rv8bldr too care of that.
I think it would be unwise to extend the engine out past where recommended. While this would help with balancing the plane when flying with 5 or 6 passengers it would make it not fun to fly when lighter. IMO, the O540 is nose heavy as it is and you'd only be making it worse; perhaps even to the point it would be difficult to land well when light.
I built my BH with a third row bench and I selected an engine that is ~50lbs lighter than the 540. Based on my estimated W&B, which was extrapolated from a sampling of BHs weight data, I'll be within CG range with my family of 5 on board as long as the girls don't grow to FAA adult size.Scratch Built 4-place Bearhawk. Continental IO-360, 88" C203 McCauley prop.
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Originally posted by rv8bldr View PostHey Michael
I was just about to respond saying that you can't have more than 4 people in a homebuilt in Canada when I thought I had better confirm that. Imagine my surprise when I found this about the exemption to CARS 549.01:
The purpose of this exemption is to permit persons who apply for a special certificate of airworthiness in the amateur-built classification:- to contract for professional assistance in the construction or assembly of parts of the aircraft, provided the work is subject to the builder’s overall control;
- to import, register and operate in Canada foreign-built amateur-aircraft, subject to a Transport Canada inspection of the aircraft; and
- to not have to comply with the maximum permissible take-off mass (weight) and the maximum number of passenger seats requirements.
I guess I'm behind the times.... qu'elle surprise :-)
If you put a big 540, especially an injected one, and a CS prop, I don't think you will need to move the engine out further, the airplane will be pretty nose heavy as it is. Also, the more you push that nose out, the more directionally unstable the airplane becomes. You can do a search on these forums on this as I remember this discussion coming up in the last year or so.
Cheers (from outside of Ottawa)
I just got a reply back from MDRA on this...but I dont speak parliamentary lawyer talk...maybe you guys can translate...does this mean I can pop the champagne? dancing in the streets....lol
The exemption to section 549.01 of the CAR's and Chapter 549 of the airworthiness manual removes the limits applicable to gross weight and number of seats allowable for an amateur built aircraft.
That same Exemption provides what is required per seat in an amateur built. ie: acceptable seat belt and shoulder restraint harness are required per seat and safety harnesses must be secured to a structural member of the aircraft.
Excited in Toronto
MichaelLast edited by way_up_north; 12-03-2018, 11:09 AM.
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Originally posted by whee View PostI can't help with the Canada question but it looks like rv8bldr too care of that.
I think it would be unwise to extend the engine out past where recommended. While this would help with balancing the plane when flying with 5 or 6 passengers it would make it not fun to fly when lighter. IMO, the O540 is nose heavy as it is and you'd only be making it worse; perhaps even to the point it would be difficult to land well when light.
I built my BH with a third row bench and I selected an engine that is ~50lbs lighter than the 540. Based on my estimated W&B, which was extrapolated from a sampling of BHs weight data, I'll be within CG range with my family of 5 on board as long as the girls don't grow to FAA adult size.
Do you have your seats on adjustable tracks? I was thinking when carrying a 3rd row you could really push the 2nd and 3rd row as far forward as possible to help the CG..your thoughts on packing them in economy class...
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Pop champagne? Sure :-) Dancing in the streets? Not in this weather....
I note in your response to Whee asking about adjustable seats. The front seats are adjustable. The back seats are not either in the plans or the QB kit. It will take some serious thinking and modification skills to make the back (middle?) seats adjustable. It certainly not something I would tackle....
Back where you would need to put the third seat, I would guesstimate that it is about 32" wide taking into account that your shoulder could extend into the door space. I would have to check tonight when I get home to be sure. The bottom fuselage dimension at the back end of the cabin is only 29" and the top is 27 1/2".-------------------
Mark
Maule M5-235C C-GJFK
Bearhawk 4A #1078 (Scratch building - C-GPFG reserved)
RV-8 C-GURV (Sold)
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I bet your overwhelmed at the speed of my build this year
I'll measure the approximate widths at the second and third rows when I'm at the airport later today. I don't have the seats in but I can get pretty close. Worth noteing that I did not install fabric interior to maximize my interior space. Every mm counts in economy class.
My second and third row are on L-track for the reason you mention. With the second row slid forward with sufficient but minimal leg room for myself I have sufficient but minimal leg room for myself in the 3rd row. Head space is the issue for the 3rd row.
Scratch Built 4-place Bearhawk. Continental IO-360, 88" C203 McCauley prop.
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image_5515.jpgOriginally posted by rv8bldr View PostPop champagne? Sure :-) Dancing in the streets? Not in this weather....
I note in your response to Whee asking about adjustable seats. The front seats are adjustable. The back seats are not either in the plans or the QB kit. It will take some serious thinking and modification skills to make the back (middle?) seats adjustable. It certainly not something I would tackle....
Back where you would need to put the third seat, I would guesstimate that it is about 32" wide taking into account that your shoulder could extend into the door space. I would have to check tonight when I get home to be sure. The bottom fuselage dimension at the back end of the cabin is only 29" and the top is 27 1/2".
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Originally posted by whee View PostI bet your overwhelmed at the speed of my build this year
I'll measure the approximate widths at the second and third rows when I'm at the airport later today. I don't have the seats in but I can get pretty close. Worth noteing that I did not install fabric interior to maximize my interior space. Every mm counts in economy class.
My second and third row are on L-track for the reason you mention. With the second row slid forward with sufficient but minimal leg room for myself I have sufficient but minimal leg room for myself in the 3rd row. Head space is the issue for the 3rd row.
The wife is in on this project as long as the kiddies and pooch can come.
I guess procedures and a checklist could be made up for safe operation(not comfortable operation) with 4+ passengers. I was thinking front seats as far forward as possible.second row pushed forward....as you describe...etc...
I think you also mentioned a belly pod in your posts, if such a thing could be worked out for the bear hawk, it could really help to keep the CG near optimal and add much needed storage when you are carrying 4+ passengers.Last edited by way_up_north; 12-03-2018, 12:33 PM.
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Originally posted by whee View PostI didn’t think about widening the fuselage. That’s getting into structural changes and I didn’t want to go there.
4+ passengers adds a new dimension to this aircraft. Ill be following your progress
installing the track is a great idea, do you have a link to a supplier?Last edited by way_up_north; 12-03-2018, 12:41 PM.
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Wonder where the CG would be if the second row seat faced aft with the third seat moved forward about 12â€
Whee.... I’ll probably follow your lead on the seat tracks...and will add “C†channel formed with a leaf brake from oh three two on the under side of the floor sheeting to reinforce the track. Heavier tabs and nut plates where the track passes over tubing under the floor.Last edited by Mark Moyle; 12-03-2018, 12:51 PM.
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Originally posted by Mark Moyle View PostWonder where the CG would be if the second row seat faced aft with the third seat moved forward about 12â€Scratch Built 4-place Bearhawk. Continental IO-360, 88" C203 McCauley prop.
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Good idea on the track reinforcement Mark. I don’t think it is necessary but won’t hurt.
I can’t remember where I sourced the L-track. It was from the same manufacturer Boeing uses but wasn’t their certified track. I conversed with the manufacture and determined what I bought was more than adequate.Scratch Built 4-place Bearhawk. Continental IO-360, 88" C203 McCauley prop.
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Originally posted by way_up_north View Post
I think you also mentioned a belly pod in your posts, if such a thing could be worked out for the bear hawk, it could really help to keep the CG near optimal and add much needed storage when you are carrying 4+ passengers.
Scratch Built 4-place Bearhawk. Continental IO-360, 88" C203 McCauley prop.
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