Plans or Kit

[LoveyCG]

Hello,
Trying to decide between a Patrol kit or plans. I'll have access to a fully equipped shop, but i would have to drive to it. I have a very large heated workshop at my house but no special tools or heavy machinery. I have no doubt the tooling at the shop is more than adequate but i'm trying to be realistic. I'm concerned that I would get frustrated and quit if I have to continually drive to a shop when i need something. So what tools do you really need for plans? I would have the standard basic tools at the house including: air compressor and accessories and I would let myself buy a welder, but I won't have a drill press, break, heavy duty band saw, table grinder, table sander or lathe. Do I need these things? The internet seems to think I do. Also, with regards to assistance required for a plans build, would i need two sets of hands as in a full time helper, or can i reasonably expect to be able to complete this project on my own with occasional assistance from a buddy?

Also, any active New England builders I could pester with qts and visit? Not sure if the builders map is up to date.

[Enewton57]

Hi,
I guess I am uniquely qualified to answer this question since I have done both. I plans built a 4-place Bearhawk, then I built a Patrol from a kit.
The number one question you have to ask yourself is, "why am I building this?" If the primary reason to build it is to go flying, go with the kit. If the primary reason is you look forward to building something with your own two hands and you are the type of person who spends hours and hours in the shop just piddling around, go with plans built.
The second question to ask yourself is, "What do I have more of, time or money" when you build a kit, you are shaving years off the build process. When my kit arrived, I looked at it and said, "it took me exactly 3 years to get to this point with my plans built Bearhawk."

The tools you named are correct for a plans built along with a good rivet gun and bucking bars (which you will need for either plans or kit.

One thing that I did not anticipate with the plans built was its value. When I was trying to sell it, the first question most buyers asked was, "was it built from a kit?" They have a psychological comfort level with kit built. Also, kits tend to be much straighter because of the heavy steel jigs and fixtures used at the factory. As a plans builder, you will likely make your fuselage jig out of 2 x 4 lumber. You will need to make several fixtures and jigs to make certain parts as you go.

It really is a labor of love to plans build. You have to do it for the joy of the build, not for the joy of flying. I did finish mine, only because I really got a lot of joy out working in my shop, I still do. It's my escape, my sanity. In fact, I have discovered that I enjoy building more than I enjoy flying. I previously built an Rv-6A and when it was finished, I ,issued having a project to work on.

Take a good look at what you are looking for, a project or an airplane. If the answer is "airplane" buy a kit. You will likely be much happier and you will be more likely to finish it.


Eric Newton
Bearhawk Tailwheels LLC

Http://bhtailwheels.com

Bearhawk Builder Manuals

Http://mybearhawk.com

[jaredyates]

Welcome to the group! Eric is experienced and wise, and has provided some great information in his post. I'd add that my whole mindset about scratch vs kit building changed when I got to visit the kit factory last fall. These days I've realized that in one sense, all Bearhawks are built from scratch, it's just that kit buyers are making use of cost-saving advantages that the factory has. The "why to build" question is key. Don't feel at all like the kit is going to deprive you of building opportunity- you'll still have a very large project and will get to use all of the skills that you would use scratch building- you'll just use the skills less repetitively. Personally I found that I didn't need to make a whole set of ribs to feel like I had a good understanding of aluminum working, for example. The one exception is welding, since you could build from a kit an not necessarily need to weld anything. We chose to do a little bit of welding on our 4-place kit, but those mods added quite a bit of extra work and effort for limited gain in the end. I'd differ slightly from what Eric said on one point- if your primary reason is to go flying, consider buying a completed airplane, even if the limited availability of flying Patrols leads you to settle for a different but similar type. You'll likely have to make sacrifices in areas like handling characteristics and high cruise speed of the Patrol, but it seems like the highest rate of giving up comes when folks set out to build an airplane because they think building is a shortcut to getting an airplane. Building is not going to make economic sense if you don't place financial value on the enjoyment of building, or at least being able to customize the "taste" choices like color scheme and panel layout. If you are interested in building an airplane so that you can learn from the process, make a hobby out of building, and make the aforementioned "taste choices," then go with the kit. If you are approaching the project as a mission to be able to say that you built every piece of your flying machine, then scratch build. There is nothing wrong with this last choice, and you'll have plenty of success as long as you enter the project knowing that's why you're doing it. There are many folks who have successfully scratch built fine Bearhawks. To paraphrase something scratch-builder Pat Fagan told me, after completing his airplane, he felt like he could fabricate just about anything out of those materials.

I'd be very wary of the argument that scratch building is going to save you any money. There are folks who will tell you that the kit is too expensive, but airplanes are expensive, and those folks are often underestimating the cost of scratch building. Many underestimate the cost of getting a scratch-build to the completion point of a kit, and/or overestimate their ability to get good deals on materials. Some people do have exceptional scrounging ability and will be able to cite lower material costs, but keep in mind that scrounging takes time. For a related example of time management, I spent about three years watching classified ads and eBay auctions for a transponder. The new cost was $1700. In the end I purchased one for $1250. Being that I probably spent a combined 30 hours of time to get that deal, I paid myself $15 per hour for the opportunity to take on the risk of buying a unit that might have been stolen, gray market, damaged, etc. Was that really a wise financial choice? Let's just say if I build another airplane, I don't think I'll bother with this strategy, at least not for avionics. A similar point applies to materials. You'll hear from lots of builders who undervalue their time in general, and especially disregard the semi-hidden time spent in cases like this. This is not a problem! A person may value his time however he wishes. Just realize that you may or may not value your time in the same way, so be sure to take spending your time into account in your analysis.

There are several reasons for the relatively small cost difference between a home scratch builder and a kit. One is the cost of excess material to allow for mistakes, waste that comes from cutting rounded parts out of square sheets, and minimum ordering sizes. For example, if you need three feet of a particular size of tubing and you have to buy a longer piece from your supplier because they only sell a longer minimum size, then that effectively increases the cost of that part, and in the larger picture, of scratch building. If the project requires three feet of that size, then a kit buyer is only buying three feet. The factory buys a 20 foot piece and uses it to build 6 airplanes. Multiply this effect across all of the parts that a kit is made of, and you can see it really adds up. Similarly, think of the economy of scale in tooling. A scratch builder has to make a jig to make a part. The factory makes a jig to make a hundred parts. Even if it cost you and the factory the same amount to create the jig (unlikely- they are resourceful!), the factory jig only cost 1/100th of yours, unless you get it from another builder, or pass yours along when you are done. If the jig really gets around, you might approach 1/20th. The same scaling applies to tasks. When you sit down to make a pair of aileron bellcranks, your number of hours per part is going to be much higher than the factory worker who sits down to make 10 at a time, especially if he's already made 70 of them in the past 6 months. Tools are the same way- by building from a kit, you'll not need to source a 10-foot bending brake for the wing parts. The kind of brake that can adequately bend a 10-foot long piece of 2024T3 is likely going to be in a professional fabrication shop, or perhaps a community college. That means calling around, driving around, bending sample pieces, etc. Some folks don't see this effort as a cost, but I think those folks are placing a pretty low value on their time and effort.

As Eric points out, the difference in the resale value of completed kit vs scratch airplanes so far has been pretty close to the cost difference between raw materials and a kit, so once you've invested the extra 2000+ hours to get a scratch build project to kit stage, you will have earned the privilege of completing an airplane that will likely sell for somewhere around $10,000 less than a kit. Keep in mind that this number is highly susceptible to error, since we can only accurately say that the value of a completed airplane is what someone actually pays for that completed airplane- but I think it's fair to say that there is going to be a very real value penalty in the end for scratch building.

That's a long answer to your question, and it's just one opinion. It comes from someone who doesn't have any financial incentive attached to your decision, other than a slight advantage if you are happy with your choice and become part of the Bearhawk community. As a provider of things and services to support Bearhawk builders and owners, it is to my advantage to increase the number of satisfied Bearhawk builders and enthusiasts, whether scratch builders or kit builders. Others may have different opinions and input, so be sure to take those into account too. It's a big decision, but isn't it an exciting position to be in? You are about to set out on a fantastic adventure, and whether you go by bus or train, you are still going to be on a fantastic adventure.

Also, any active New England builders I could pester with qts and visit? Not sure if the builders map is up to date.

The map is entirely voluntary, so it only shows folks who have gone out of their way to opt-in.

[JakeP]

> Trying to decide between a Patrol kit or plans. I'll have access to a fully equipped shop, but i would have to drive to it. I have a very large heated workshop at my house but no special tools or heavy machinery. I have no doubt the tooling at the shop is more than adequate but i'm trying to be realistic. I'm concerned that I would get frustrated and quit if I have to continually drive to a shop when i need something.

This is a hard topic to address one way or the other. I personally love working on the plane and would not have trouble making a half hour drive every day to get things done, if necessary. However, would that annoy others, such as the shop owner(s)? How much would gas cost doing that 180 times? If neither of those are issues, then I definitely could do it myself, but what about you? Impossible to say.

> So what tools do you really need for plans? I would have the standard basic tools at the house including: air compressor and accessories and I would let myself buy a welder...

Wildly estimating, there are probably fifty parts that will need to be hot bent, so you need an oxy-acetylene rig for that, since no arc rig can hot bend. If you plan on welding with TIG, that is perfectly acceptable in my opinion, but on a budget, that money would be better spent on other equipment, considering you'd already have the oxy-acetylene rig on-hand. We use both around here, so I'm not one to argue either way, just pointing out that there is no inherent need for anything more than oxy-acetylene to complete a bearhawk. However, if you plan to weld your own fuel tanks, then you're going to need TIG for that, practically speaking.

> ... but I won't have a drill press, break, heavy duty band saw, table grinder, table sander or lathe. Do I need these things? The internet seems to think I do.

The internet happens to be correct this time, more or less.

The steel cutting band saw was tricky for us. There are probably two or three hundred parts to cut with it, so you'll need this at your own shop. Also works for aluminum, but any old 14" band saw will work for aluminum. We wound up taking the electronics and motor out of a neighbor's broken treamill to modify a cheapo 14" Taiwanese band saw, to slow it down enough to cut steel. Works fantastic, but it was a few day project to make the modifications.

Definitely need a drill press at home. We are using a Bridgeport mill, which is arguably overkill, but you can probably get away with using a $150 bench mounted drill press for many things and going to a bigger shop for the trickier stuff.

Having already had the experience of using someone else's big brake, I'd buy the long items that require an 8 foot brake, but a four foot finger brake is necessary for everything else. You *might* be able to go to another shop to use a four foot brake, but I would find it inconvenient.

We are using something like a 40" lathe. It gets used plenty, but I suspect you might be able to get by with some other shop's lathe. Hard to answer this one exactly, other than to say that you definitely need access to a lathe to build a Bearhawk.

Bench grinder and bench belt sander are required. You'll need these at your home shop. They don't need to be high end models. You'll use the heck out of them.

> Also, with regards to assistance required for a plans build, would i need two sets of hands as in a full time helper, or can i reasonably expect to be able to complete this project on my own with occasional assistance from a buddy?

Occasional assistance is probably enough.

[N3UW]

I personally think that if you are asking, go for the kit. I personally believe that unless you are driven by the love of building for the sake of building you may be better served by buying the kit. It removes a lot of the frustrations.

[Bcone1381]

Definitely listen to what John just said, but I personally do not know if I am going to love the build process. I might suggest you make a Master Wing Jig, if you enjoyed it, make the other jigs. If you enjoyed that, buy some aluminum from Spruce and make some nose ribs. Soon you'll know if the build is a love, or an inconvenience. A couple hundred bucks spent on AL will take some time to be formed into wing parts can educate us on what our own tolerances and passions are.

[LoveyCG]

I've come to the conclusion that no amount of research can give a perspective builder a good idea as to the unbelievable amount of work that goes into a kit and especially a plans built plane. You just have to do it to find out. Every new article, video or post reveals something else, some other tool, consideration, subtle thing that a perspective builder just wouldn't know unless he does it or unless someone tells him. So thanks for the welcome and information. I really do appreciate it. I envy the craftsman that has the patience, intelligence and skill to complete a project like this and I hope to join the ranks of the builder one day.

I have much to ponder. Thanks.

[kestrel]

Where are you in New England? I fly a 4 place out of NH16.

[Bcone1381]

...no amount of research can give a perspective builder a good idea as to the unbelievable amount of work that goes into a kit and especially a plans built plane.....I have much to ponder. Thanks.

It sounds like you are looking at the whole project and feeling overwhelmed. That is normal, and typical. The EAA has done some research into the most successful mindset to have in order to be successful at taking on an airplane building project.

They would say..."don't look at the project as a whole, or you will feel overwhelmed. Rather, take it one simple step at a time. Focus and Build one single part at a time. Keep making all these little parts until there are no more parts to make. After that, put the parts together to make an assembly.

So, I start out with a form block, focusing on a nose rib. My first assembly will be a Spar, I think, then the Aileron. I have no idea how I will do that, and I don't care. I just focus on my Nose Rib.

So I must confess, that I don't know very much in order to begin and I will learn a lot along the way. Furthermore, when I am done fabricating parts, I can forget about that process, and learn about, and tool up for assembly and riveting.

I can get tripped up,along the way too. If set before me a picture of a completed Bearhawk Patrol, I will get overwhelmed. If I had a buddies Patrol to go look at and fly, I would probably feel overwhelmed. I wonder if I ordered the Quickbuild Kit if I would feel as though I am overwhelmed, seeing all these parts, and not know where to start, and give up because a feeling of being overwhelmed, and fearing failure!

When I get home, I am just going down in the basement and work on my next form block. While I am idle and away from home, I am trying prepare to start Making my first part...for that I need Aluminum.

I just Keep it simple and keep telling my self "One Part at a Time, Brooksie...just one part at a time."

[KyBearhawk]

My opinion is a kit is for someone that wants to build an airplane. You will still have plenty to do. Plans are for people that just needs something to do around the shop. Take in mind most kits dont get completed by the original person that starts them. It is a huge job to build a kit. I am a scratch building, as well as building most the tools I need. I just want to be able to say that I built every part of the plane. Not sure if I will ever fly it though. I am really starting to think I will die before I get it done and I am not even 40 yet.

[dedgemon]

i would say that successful scratch building is generally the perview of the repeat offender. its the next step for most of us. definitely more time consuming. for a first airplane project i would go with the kit.