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**jaredyates** · 12-24-2013, 08:15 AM

Welcome Barry! Are you an EAA member by chance? If so, there are some good articles in the Sport Aviation archives on this topic by Bud Davisson. The numbers might beed a little bit of adjustment, but you would have a good start. His analysis was for the 4-place and not the Patrol, but if I remember correctly he figured that the cost over the time savings was on the order of $10 per hour. My short answer is that unless you have an ideological reason to want to scratch build, or unless you have little or no value for your time, you'll expend less resources with a kit. There is still plenty of building and learning to do with the kit, without the most repetitive work. Every hour of building is an hour that you can't spend doing something else. This is something that may not seem obvious at first, but after a few hundred hours of building time, it will seem more obvious.

**bestbearhawk1231** · 12-24-2013, 09:51 AM

Hi Barry, I am scratch building a 4 place. I chose to scratch build because I enjoy building and tinkering. I am also fairly young and have more time than money. The nice thing about scratch building is that you can spread out the expenses over a long period of time. I set aside around $100-$200 per month for materials I was able to find this money by canceling cable TV. I was spending around $150/month on cable just to get the few channels that were worth my time. This allows me to buy as much as I can afford and not end up way deep in debt. The non sale list price for a complete quick build kit is around $43 grand... that is a lot of dough no matter how you look at it and you still have to hang an engine and prop, the rest of the FWF, and avionics. My initial aluminum order was in the neighborhood of a grand and that bought me all the aluminum for the ribs and if I remember right the spars also. That kept me busy for almost a year before I had to make another order. I have around 650 hours into mine, that made all of the ribs, stiffener angles, attach angles, spar splice plates, wing attach plates. aileron pushrods, L/H flap (minus hinge angles, trailing edge, and covering), R/H flap about 2/3 of the way to the point that the L/H flap is at. I also have all of the spars bent up, litening holes drilled, etc waiting for a tax return so I can order the capstrip material to build up the spars. The nice thing about scratch building is that you can jump around as finances and interests change. I don't have to worry about the capstrip material until late summer at the earliest because I can build up both ailerons and weld up the wing steel parts. I am hoping my bird is covered and painted less avionics and firewall forward for the price of the ultra wing kit...how realistic this is depends on how much I screw up and have to rebuild. I have a 30 gallon trash can full of aluminum scraps and bad parts. Everyone's situation, expectations, and goals are different. Jared "cheated" twice ( as he told me) by buying a started kit. He now has a bird that is flying and I am still working on my wings. The money I am saving by doing it this way is more important to me at this point than getting it in the air quickly. I am the type of guy who will be in the shop building something else once my bird is complete so it is a time killer for me and I like the "solitude" of sitting in the shop with the music turned up. Because of this, I don't put a price tag on my time since it is entertainment for me. If you want to scratch build, it definitely helps to like being by yourself with your own thoughts...you will find yourself thinking and contemplating things that you would never give time for otherwise. You can always buy the sub kits down the road if you find that scratch building is not your cup of tea. If you want a good jump start, the spar and rib kit is a good deal and will save you a few hundred hours. Everything takes longer than you think it should. My L/H flap, for example, went together and came apart 5-6 times before the rivets were pulled/driven... I then realized that I had used the rivet gauge wrong and had to drill out 2/3s of the spar rivets and drive them again. When you scratch build, you are in charge of buying all material and hardware...kits give you boxes of hardware right from the get go. Scratch building is not for everyone, but it is the only way for some. I could have saved my money and bought a kit 15 years from now but I chose to scratch build and hopefully be flying 15 years from now. I have no idea how I am going to pay for the FWF or avionics, but I have time to save and figure it out. Hopefully this helps. Joe

**bestbearhawk1231** · 12-24-2013, 10:08 AM

You should also know that I am not married and don't have kids. That translates to a lot of time sitting in front of the TV otherwise. If that situation changes in the future and I have to shelf the project until kids are in college then I am this much closer to my childhood dream. When I started, I didn't want to be in my Dad's shoes in his late 50s contemplating if it would even be worth pursuing the dream once everything is laid on the table. That point really hit home when Dad and I went to Osh back in 2010 for the first time and I watched him deal with reality and his dreams. At the point of life he is at I would recommend a kit so he could have as much flying time as possible. I want mine flying by retirement so I can tour the states, head up to Alaska, and do some back country flying.

**X'N** · 12-24-2013, 03:21 PM

Barry,

It sounds like you want to scratch build for the right reason. That being you love building stuff. That was my motivation. Ever since I was in A&P school 15 years ago I wanted to build an RV. I came a click away from purchasing a RV6 kit but things got in the way and never did. Then a co-worker purchased 4place BH plans and after helping him with his forms blocks got me motivated to start building. Being a bigger guy the patrol is a given over almost all other planes for me... the rest is history. As others have said 1-2 grand can get you pretty far into building the wings.

**Barry** · 12-26-2013, 02:40 PM

Well, it's official, I have ordered Patrol plans and builder manuals. I am excited to get started!

**fixnflyr** · 12-26-2013, 04:01 PM

Congratulations Barry on the plans build decision! I have made the same decision also. My wife gave me plan set #262 this year for Christmas, I think it's a cool number. I wanted to plans build because I like building parts from sheetmetal and 4130. I wanted to weld everything myself including the fuel tanks. I also have a ton of parts. I am in the aviation maintenance business and I have most all the hardware on hand and some materials.
I bought my first part for the Patrol this week. It's a 0-15 PSI gauge. I am going to weld a 1/8 pipe bung on a fuselage tube visible in the cockpit. I am going to drill a #30 hole on the inside of every cluster joint and install a Schrader valve in the tail. When I am finished welding I will purge and pressurize the fuselage with 2-3 psi of N^2. That way I can check every weld for a crack in a split second on preflight and the inside of my fuselage will not rust because of the oxygen free environment. I think it will weigh less than linseed oil and will be much easier to put in. I love the freedom of little minor changes like that you can do when you plans build. I like the idea of buying it one little bit at the time also.
I hop to get started by the fall of 2014. I have 3 or 4 projects to finish before I can start building.
Good luck,
Fixnflyr

**X'N** · 12-26-2013, 04:45 PM

Congrats!

One thing to consider. Look and think hard about buying the preformed ribs. You'll save almost a year of build time.

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