4 Place Bearhawk scratch build. Advice????

[gthree0239]

I am very seriously considering the Bearhawk. I really like everything I have read and seen about this airplane. I'd like to find information on the amount of space a builder would need and cost to build the complete airframe and total cost to get the airplane flying. Also, I have read roughly 3,000 hours to scratch build not including time to build jigs and read plans etc. Is this number accurate? All information and advice would really be appreciated. Thanks

[jaredyates]

Welcome to the forums! Where will you be building, geographically speaking? Maybe you could catch up with another Bearhawk builder to visit with, to get a better idea of the scope of the project. Your questions have highly variable answers, depending on how you think about things. There is not really a minimum space requirement, but if you try and build in a very small space, then your build time will be higher, because you will not be able to work as efficiently. The build time is also highly variable, depending on how you calculate the time, how much money you want to spend, and how you work. Are you deciding what to build based on the answers to those questions? If so, I'd advise not placing much emphasis on those variables, just because it is going to be nearly impossible to collect valuable and accurate information about multiple types.

Do you have a building space in mind already? If you start with the wings, you'll have plenty of work to do before you need anything more than a 10x10 workshop. You'll need something more like a garage bay to frame up a wing or the fuselage, though the fuselage is a tight fit in most typical garages. You'll also need a place to store the completed assemblies if you are expecting to build the next assembly in the same space. If you had a 26x40 hangar, you'd have all the space you would ever want.

As for build time, are you going to count the time that you walk into the shop and turn the light on until the time you leave? Or only the time that you are working on parts? I ask not to be difficult, but to try to point out that it is hard to provide a meaningful answer. Scratch building is a monumental task that is going to take thousands of hours over several years for most builders. Building from a kit, or kit parts purchased individually, starts reducing the number of hours. Builders are constantly faced with decisions about spending time or money. For one tiny example, will you buy a battery box kit from Vans, or will you fabricate your own? It is a good idea to go into a project like this with some sort of understanding of what your time is worth. If you can save a day by buying something with more value than raw materials, how much would it be worth- $20? $50? $500? Your answer to that question is going to make a big difference in the total build time.

[mswain]

I think Jared provided some very realistic and sage advice. The smaller the space, the more time you will spend managing that space vs. building. I got my ribs ready in nothing more than a shed, but I am in a 2 car garage now (cars are outside) and even now with 1 wing complete and the other in a jig......I spend a fair amount of time tooling up for each activity. There are so many variables to build time, many of them in your control......that it's almost pointless to guess......but I think 3,000 for a scratchbuild is somewhat unrealistic.

You can start making ribs with minimal investment and tooling, which will give you a feel for what you're in for.

[Barry]

All very good advise, this forum is a great place to learn and get help. My 2 cents on wether to scratch build. Build for the love of building, not to save money. Be honest with yourself and be sure you have the time to devote to it. 3000 hours? Not sure, but I can tell you that I have invested 1 year and 600 hours and I am just starting to skin the wings. Don't know if that is good or not, don't really care. For me it has been a fun experience and I have learned a lot and have a lot to learn, and that is why I do it. If you decide to go for it, good luck and the folks here on this forum will give you a lot of support. Enjoy!!

[Mark Moyle]

Deleted double post

[Mark Moyle]

One piece of advice.....stick to the plans....I started in oh six. I'm at the QB kit stage...less painting the fuselage. Built the fuselage from the first VR3 kit tubing kit. Bought QB wings, tanks and wing tips from Mark G. Spent a lot of time dinging around. Wanted two master cylinders instead of four...modified a rudder pedal assembly off 182. That meant running the cables under the floor. Making parts to create a rudder cable tensioner device. Making different pulley brackets... That got in the way of the flap cable run...had to modify that so it would work. Somebody said a Continental IO 520 wouldn't fit. Spent a bunch of time figuring how to do it and have at the expense of a bunch of time...having to move the engine back to keep CG with the heavier engine. Bigger fuel lines..more complicated system. Then I wanted a cool looking cowl. Bought one for a Mooney Acclaim....I must have spent a month getting the firewall built...three tries. So....I go by an airplane to fly...PA20. Landing gear breaks. Now I'm rebuilding it. I'm past what would be a QB kit if one existed. Started in February. Modified the hell out of it. Thought I'd be done by now.. If you stick to the plans.... You will not be......me.


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[bestbearhawk1231]

I am scratchbuilding #1231. I build for the relaxation value. I am the guy in the neighborhood who is up all hours of the night building stuff in the garage keeping the neighbors up when they want to sleep. I would be in the garage anyway so I decided to build something that I would be able to enjoy once it was "done"...because of this I don't put a value on my time anymore than others put a value on the time they spend watching TV or dinking around on the internet. I have been working on mine since December 2011 (I think) and have around 700 hours in. I am currently working on the internal steel wing parts. Once the steel parts, fuel tanks, and spars are done I will be able to start skinning the wings...I think. Both flaps and ailerons are about as far as I can go until I start covering. My project is funded through working holidays and overtime at work, when the OT is available work on the plane comes to a halt so I can buy more "junk" for the project such as raw materiels, hardware, tools, replace broken tools, and consumables. You will go through a lot of consumables and break a bunch of tools, just part of the game. Just a heads up, when cutting 4130 steel out on a bandsaw you need to watch the tooth count a lot closer than with mild steel. I smoked a $35 bimetal 14/18T skip pattern bandsaw blade cutting out the 1/8" tabs for the bellcranks...stripped off a bunch of the 14T pattern and left the 18T pattern alone...I finished the tabs and 3/16 wing strut attach strips with a $12 generic 18T blade which was all I could find on a sunday. Anyway, I am a single guy who works for a living so I have to do everything in the household to keep thing under control, paying bills, cleaning the house, snow removal, mowing lawn, keeping vehicles running, etc. it all adds up. I didn't work on the project much for a couple summers since other "life" items came up and needed attention. Everything will take 4-5 times longer than you think it should...trust me. This is my first build so I started on the wings since I had aluminum sheet experience from the avionics work I did in a past job. If you don't know how to weld with a torch or tig, you will need to learn...once again it all takes time and money. If you have never welded with a torch or tig, will trash a bunch of metal getting the hang of it, if you learn to torch weld aluminum....well I am there now and I can tell you from experience that you will be trashing a bunch of expensive aluminum before you are comfortable welding the fuel tanks. I also build all of my own jigs, bending brake, specialty tools as I go. If you are a first time builder who works for a living, I believe that the 3000 hour count is way low. If you have several planes under your belt, don't have to work a bunch, have all the cash and tools available up front, and can work on it every day than you probably could make it happen. Remember that a standard work year (40hrs/week) is around 2000 hours.
I started in a small cramped 1 stall garage that housed my oxy set up, drill press, band saw, 2 roll around tool boxes, 2 motorcycles, a snowblower, and a lawnmower. It was a royal PITA. I had much of the rib work done and probably could have build up the spars in there but moved into a rented 25x40 heated shop in the next town over (7miles). It is great, I have all my tools laid out and everything is sort of organized...I even have room to pull a vehicle in and work on it without moving the AC related stuff. That is when the project started slowing down...extra expenses left less for materials and once I got home from work and ate I lost motivation to go to the shop after work. My point is to keep the project close to home for as long as possible. I wasn't able to and the progress shows. That said, I wouldn't give up the shop for anything...rolling around in the crushed rock driveway finding every goathead sticker really sucks and it really is nice to be able to set a car on a jackstand while working on it and not have the stand sink into the dirt.

Anyway, this got really long and I am sure it sounds like I am rambling so I will shut up now. Any questions, ask.

[bestbearhawk1231]

Also...the airframe, FWF, and instruments/avionics will be aproximately equal thirds of your total cost for the aircraft. There are a lot of variables that can have a big impact on the total price of the plane. A VFR panel will run in the neighborhood of $15 grand while an IFR panel will be $30+ grand, are you willing to use used avionics and instruments? 4 cyl vs 6cyl, lycoming vs continental, fixed pitch prop vs constant speed prop...electronic ignition vs mags, fuel injection vs carb, mid time core motor vs fresh overhaul, vs new. Are you willing to buy the manuals and rebuild a timed out core engine yourself? As far as the airframe is concerned, are you going with used parts such as wheels or new, do you want the interior to remind you of a luxury car or what pickups used to be? How elaborate is the paint scheme? Are you doing the painting, upholstery work, and panel work yourself or hire it out? How good are you at scrounging? Are you confident that you can identify an airworthy part vs a non airworthy part? I know this doesn't answer your question regarding your cost but I hope it shows that there are a lot of variables that go into that question. I believe that if you are a good scrounger and do the work yourself you could have a night VFR aircraft with a midtime 4 cyl lycoming engine and a constant speed prop for around $55-60 grand. A high power IFR bird with everything new, hired out paint/panel/upholstery, new or fresh OH c/s prop and engine, 31" tundra tires (because they are cool and the "in" thing) then the sky is the limit.

[DesertBearhawk]

I have 602 days on my project as of today. I work on mine nearly every day and all day on my weekends. I have both flaps and ailerons completed. I have both wing skeletons riveted together and in the fixture, and I have one wing completely sheeted and just about ready to rivet. If you figure 3 hours a day on average and I believe that is WAY Conservative, you're at 1800 hours plus just to get to this point. I'm figuring 5 years to get her finished.

[jaredyates]

I hope we didn't scare you off gthree0239!

[LukeS]

Most builders start by building wing components such as ribs, jigs and such. It allows the builder to get a good idea of the sheet metal skills required and begin with a minimal investment. I would NOT recommend this approach. Scratch builders have pretty low completion rates, and with most people starting on ribs, you will find projects containing wings in various stages of completion all the time if you are watching. What you will find less of, are fuselages for sale. I would recommend starting with fuselage components such as the tail. These can also be built with with minimal investment in material. There is a fair amount of cutting and shaping of joints before you would even have to bite the bullet on welding equipment. If you find that you don't enjoy building, you can sell something that not everyone has started. If you like building you may still have an opportunity to purchase another builder's project with wing components that will save you a lot of time. I just picked up a project that contains one skinned wing, ailerons, flaps, wingtips, tail wheel, jigs and all the ribs and complete spars for the other wing for $3000. There were countless other goodies included that when tallied up; showed I was paying maybe a dollar an hour for the previous builders work. It's not uncommon for builders to find projects for sale online that are mirror images of what they have spent the last year or two building, and selling for little more than the cost of materials. What ever you decide, understand that the completion time will vary greatly based on what you are willing to do/spend to save your time. Your chances of completing a Bearhawk will be greatly increased if you are building from a standpoint that you love the building experience, and not from the stance that you are willing to sacrifice approximately 3000 hours and unsaid amount of $ to be rewarded with a plane. You're off to a great start by doing your homework first. Good luck with what ever you decide.

[bestbearhawk1231]

One other thing to consider before starting is storage space. Wings take up relatively little space and can be stored flat against a wall while the main fusealage is big and bulky. You can start with the rudder, elevator and hammer out a few ribs to see if you will like the building process. There is a lot going on in the wings, on the prints they look pretty simple but in actuality, there are a ton of parts to make and it takes a long time to get to the part where you can start assembling the small parts into big parts that the other "normal" people can readily identify. That makes it hard to keep motivated. My advice would be start on what ever you are most comfortable. There are a lot of fuselage parts to be built before the main frame needs to be built, there are a lot of parts to make in the wings before you get to the point where you are framing them up and skinning. The nice thing about scratch-building is that if you start getting burnt out from working with steel, you can switch over to aluminum and back again as you feel like it. Either way you go the initial start up cost isn't all that bad... angle grinder, emery cloth, ox-acetalyne set up and filler rod....aluminum you are looking at some hard wood for the rib form block, mdf for the backing block, tin snips, sharpie. scotchbrite pads, drill, and a dead blow hammer. Most who are considering scratchbuilding will most likely have the tools to get started in their shop already.

[Wayne Massey]

gthree0239 - So your objective is to scratch build? If that is the case the first question is why? Are you doing it because you have a passion to scratch build an airplane? Are you the kind of person that enjoys challenges yet can pursue though tedious tasks? (deburing - ugg!) Are you a hobbyist? A person that can stay focused? Or are you doing it solely to save money?

If you are scratch building for any of these reason other than the latter then you might have what it takes. If the only reason you are scratch building is to save money then the odds are against you for completing a scratch build.

As far as time to compete a Bearhawk scratch build I believe it is estimated around 3,600 hours. Of course there are a lot of variables in that number. From my personal experience with a hard core desire to scratch build, a carpentry background, general handyman abilities it has taken me 2,429 hours to scratch build to the point that I almost have what a kit is comprised of. I have built many parts more than once and scraped many. I believe the estimated time to compete a kit is around 1,200 hours so I figure I’m close to target. I’ve been working on it for a little over 8 years and I almost have a kit!

The best thing about the Bearhawk is that you can purchase ready made parts from the Bearhawk Aircraft Company to shorten your build time. Probably the biggest time boost is to buy the wings. That is estimated as half the project and I can believe it! The wings take a lot of time.

But it all comes down to why do you want to build a Bearhawk and how soon do you want to fly it?

[Chewie]

I hope we didn't scare you off gthree0239!

Up-vote! Shoulda told him the 2-place takes half as long

[LukeS]

Up-vote! Shoulda told him the 2-place takes half as long

I need to try that rationale on my wife for the next project!