First Rivet Gun

[mikeno]

Like so many other topics I've researched since beginning my BH I always fall back on you guys before pulling the trigger on a purchase or decision. It's time to buy my first rivet gun and as it will be used along with the Cleaveland C frame Santa brought to assemble my spars I need one geared to that task to begin with. I want a quality tool not a worn out e-bay $99 special as I think that eliminates one variable for a newbie to riveting. But, there still seems to be a wide variety sold by reputable companies. The 3X Red Box kit seems to be a common one that includes basic accessories at $200 (Brown Tool) but the Sioux is a US made, well established company. It's $300 with no accessories. Throw in Batco, Chicago Pneumatic, Cleaveland with a wide range of prices, accessories and warranties and it's enough to make a guy just use a 4 lb hammer ;-) So, what are your thoughts and experiences? I understand that one gun may not be sufficient later but what should I start with? thanks Mike BearHawk #1250 KLXT

[marcusofcotton]

Hi Mike,
I'm using an Aircraft Tool Co. 3X kit, seems to work well for me, decent control, but I've not used others to compare it to. I also use a big CP-251 C frame squeezer that takes care of the #5s quite well, I love that beast!

Mark J

[bestbearhawk1231]

Hi Mike, I am using the ACAT brand 3x gun sold by The Yard (yardstore.com). It is your standard high quality CP knock off import, just like the red box specials. With practice, I can regulate the number of hits down to 1 or 2 at a time so the trigger is a good one. The yard also sells used name brand tools for reasonable prices. I have had my gun for 10 or 12 years now and it just keeps going. I am glad that I was talked out of spending more on a CP or Sioux. This one is plenty good for what I have needed it for. If you are doing sheet metal repair for a living, you may want to get the name brand gun...if you are only going to build 2-3 RV all aluminum planes IMHO you are better off with a high quality import and using the difference on bucking bars and other tools. If you can only have one gun, a 3x is the way to go since you can regulate it down to handle the -3s and with practice and a heavy bar you can drive -5s by turning the regulator up to 100 psi or so. If you can swing 2 guns, a 2x and a 4x are the way to go. A 2x takes a little less technique for -3s and the 4x will drive -5s easily. I have done business with The Yard for around 12-15 years now and have never had a problem with them. I started doing business with them since they would bring a tool truck up to Duncan and we could finger the tools a bit before buying. They sell mainly to working professionals and their prices reflect that. You will be hard pressed to find a better price out there and every order over $99 ships free via UPS. They sell everything from the cheapest rookie tooling to the expensive name brand tooling the pros buy after their cheap rookie tooling heads south or they realize that the old guys were right when the rookies were told to spend the money up front and save money in the long run. Bottom line, for a couple planes that the average homebuilder will build in their life you don't need to spend $600 on a CP, $300 on a Sioux, a $165 ACAT (air capital air tools) will work just fine. If you want to spend a bunch of money on pro name brand tools, buy a Dotco or Sioux air drill. The name brand tools are true lifetime tools, what I mean by that is they are designed to run 10 hours/day, 6 days/week, 52 weeks/year for 30-40 years with only the occasional O ring change out and regular oiling/greasing. We are building a set of wings. Even the high quality imports are overkill for what we are doing.

Joe Best
Bearhawk #1231

[Craig C.]

Mike: While you cogitate on size and brand, keep a close watch on the Van's forums for used tools too. There are a considerable amount that change hands there, thoiugh they don't seem to have to stay listed for very long before being sold. The one big piece of advice I'd give beyound Joe's and Mark's, is buy quality tools, even if you don't plan on keeping them forever. A quality tool most likely isn't going to fail on you at the least oppotune moment and shut you down for a while. I have a mix of CP, Thor and Souix here at home. All but one are well over 30 years old and going strong.

To give you an example about quality, in an experiment when I worked for an air cargo outfit, I bought four straight and four right angle die grinders from a cheap tool chain. I took the time to tear each one down and clean the garbage and swarf out and properly lubricate each one. By the end of the month, with light to medium use, I was down to one straght grinder still running. I don't think any tool got more than about two hours total use in that time.The post mortem on them ranged from bearing failure to shaft wear to vane breakage. Two of the right angles had gear failures in the head.
The thing is, qualtiy costs upfront, but how much frustration can you stand when the cheap tool fails a half hour into a work session and the tool store closed for the night/weekend five minutes ago?

Some food for thought.....It's much easier for a master level worker to overcome poor tooling than someone learing a skill.

Craig C.

[X'N]

I purchased a 2x & 4x gun from ATS. I think the quality to value is good.

[mikeno]

Mike: While you cogitate on size and brand, keep a close watch on the Van's forums for used tools too. There are a considerable amount that change hands there, thoiugh they don't seem to have to stay listed for very long before being sold. The one big piece of advice I'd give beyound Joe's and Mark's, is buy quality tools, even if you don't plan on keeping them forever. A quality tool most likely isn't going to fail on you at the least oppotune moment and shut you down for a while. I have a mix of CP, Thor and Souix here at home. All but one are well over 30 years old and going strong. To give you an example about quality, in an experiment when I worked for an air cargo outfit, I bought four straight and four right angle die grinders from a cheap tool chain. I took the time to tear each one down and clean the garbage and swarf out and properly lubricate each one. By the end of the month, with light to medium use, I was down to one straght grinder still running. I don't think any tool got more than about two hours total use in that time.The post mortem on them ranged from bearing failure to shaft wear to vane breakage. Two of the right angles had gear failures in the head. The thing is, qualtiy costs upfront, but how much frustration can you stand when the cheap tool fails a half hour into a work session and the tool store closed for the night/weekend five minutes ago? Some food for thought.....It's much easier for a master level worker to overcome poor tooling than someone learing a skill. Craig C.

Craig - I took your advice and found a new in box Red Box 3X kit on Van's classified for $150 including shipping. I don't think I can do much better than that. Thanks to all for your input - you guys are a fountain of knowledge! Now, if you could get the weather in the state of Misery to warm up enough so my hangar is above 40F (with a Dragon heater burning through the jet fuel) I'd really appreciate it!

[bestbearhawk1231]

Cool, glad you found one for a decent price. For what it is worth, I have had the best luck with Marvel Mystery Oil air tool oil. I have used other brands and had them gum up my tools and wreak havoc on them. The marvel brand air tool oil seems to let them run at a higher rpm and have more power. A couple years ago I had an o-ring stop sealing on my 90 degree mini die grinder, when I opened up the tool to replace the o-ring I couldn't see any wear on any of the internals so I flipped the o-ring back over, and put it back together and she has been singing along like new ever since.

[mikeno]

Cool, glad you found one for a decent price. For what it is worth, I have had the best luck with Marvel Mystery Oil air tool oil. I have used other brands and had them gum up my tools and wreak havoc on them. The marvel brand air tool oil seems to let them run at a higher rpm and have more power. A couple years ago I had an o-ring stop sealing on my 90 degree mini die grinder, when I opened up the tool to replace the o-ring I couldn't see any wear on any of the internals so I flipped the o-ring back over, and put it back together and she has been singing along like new ever since.

Do you use an inline oiler or just add a few drops before use?

[bestbearhawk1231]

I just add a few drops first thing in the morning, maybe again around lunch if it is a heavy use day. If you use too much it will make a mess of your work. A little goes a long ways.

[Craig C.]

Just add a few drops to any air tool and then cover the exhaust with a rag and run for a few seconds. If you get a wet spot on the rag, move to a clean area, then keep going until it quits. Too much oil and you will have it all over you and your work. Should you get a bunch of oil on your parts, 70% or better alcohol will clean it up.

Craig C.

[Fast_012]

If I can tag onto Mike's quesion...I was thinking in terms of quality with getting a rebuilt or remanufactured CP. But then wondered if it's using import clone parts to rebuild it what's the difference in getting it or a new ACAT clone? Any thoughts, or am I over thinking it?

Robert

[bestbearhawk1231]

I really can't comment of the the quality of parts that go into the reman CPs, but the Yard Store can probably help you out. They have always been straight shooters with me. They buy used tools, refurbish them, then sell them as used on a regular basis. There website if www.yardstore.com and their phone # is 1.800.888.8991 in the US and Canada and 316.265.4673 for those who are in other countries. I just received their new catalog a couple days ago and they have the ACAT 3x gun with spring and regulator listed for $165...they also have it advertized as being US made. I had always assumed that they were imported due to the price being so close to the imported ones. They have a great trigger on them, I have had mine for around 10 years now and it just keeps on going. I haven't done sheetmetal for a living but for what I have used it for it has been plenty good. I have no experience with the other clones so I can't comment on them. If you don't have their catalog, it is a nice one to have around even if you don't buy from them...at least you know what the pros would use in those situations that leave you scratching your head.