Lurking in Vancouver, Canada

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max_burke

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I believe there are a couple Bearhawk's up in this area. I recall seeing one doing circuits at CYPK last fall ("that is a huge Super Cub!") which got me interested in the design.

I'm just poking around the forums and builder logs while I plan my workshop.

Out of curiosity, have any scratch builders built a Bearhawk for their first aircraft construction project? Has anyone done it without prior metal fabrication experience?
 
Hi Max, welcome to the group. I am scratch building a 4 place as my first build. I was an avioncs tech in my prior career so I had some experience with aluminum but am in no way, shape, or form an expert. There is a lot of experience here and no shortage of help. Not sure what your experience level is but the Tony Bingelis books (I think there are 4 of them) are a great place to start gaining information if you are into reading. You will need a copy of the AC 43.13 Acceptable methods, techniques, and practices...it is produced by the FAA and is the go to book for A&P/sheetmetal mechanics. EAA's sheet metal building basics book is another place to start. Check out the little 2-5 minute videos on the EAA website that cover everything from how to use a cleco, to riveting, to hardware... it is unbelievable what all is there. If you are serious about it, spend the $300 on the prints and study them. Your first reaction to the 28 or so pages will most likely be "what did I get myself into" don't worry, it is normal. The print package also includes a book that shows some of the techniques used. Take your time studying the prints and it will all come together. I started with the wings. The prints come with a full size print out of the rib cross section, basically you glue it down to a thick piece of wood (I used an oak 1x8 glued together to give me 1.5" thick or so) then cut the wood out close to the line and use a sander to shape it right up to the line. That becomes your "master" form block from which just about all other wing rib cutting, forming, and backing blocks are made from. Once the form blocks are made, it is time to place an aluminum order. Trace out your ribs onto the aluminum, cut out, deburr, hammer the rivet flanges over...the process goes on but it is pretty much one fairly simple task after another. The nice thing is that the skills are easily learned along the way and build on themselves as you go. You don't have to know how to drive a rivet to get started. It is advised to practice on scrap until you get the hang of it though. Any of the complex parts that require a lathe can be bought online from the bearhawk kit store. A band saw, bench grinder with 3M deburring wheel, drill press, router with table, and bench belt sander are nice to have to get started. You really don't need that big of an investment to get started. You can start on the fuselage just as easily with minimal tooling requirements. If you have questions, feel free to ask.

Joe
 
Hi Max.

We have not built an airplane before but with the support of this group & the internet it is possible to see & learn everything you need. Get a copy of both Russ Erb's and Eric Newton's instructions to building a Bearhawk. We have done a very quality job and are looking to get it completed in the fall. That will be 10 years of construction. Attached is write up on using a router to make the set up for cutting the aluminum & making the dies for forming the flanges that is attached.

This is a conversation that does not occur here and in fairness to you should. This is not to discourage but to encourage as well as to consider scratch built vs. quick build kit.

We were told at the outset by another scratch builder to buy the wing kit. We thought we could knock the wing of fairly quick. We have no idea what we have for hours to build the airplane but it is light years beyond what is advertised. We have worked fairly steady with several nights a week and only took breaks in the summer as living in Northern Ontario everyone wants to make the best of the short summers. We have skills and one partner is a professional certified welder who TIG welded our parts, fuselage, & fuel tanks. We work steady & do not stand around in the shop and chat. We are all retired now and in the past year have spent on average 4 days a week trying hard to get this finished.

We have come to the conclusion that if one added up all the tools, welding equipment, tables, costs to light & heat a shop for years, materials, shipping & consumables such as sand paper paint etc. that there really is no significant savings. Shipping is a killer if it has to go any distance. We have had this conversation a lot lately.

I did a presentation for the Winnipeg RAA group on scratch building the wing & the work shows as being impressive. The wings are show quality after they were painted and that was not a goal but a result of the construction processes. Another builder at the presentation agreed with us that there is no significant savings to scratch building the wings. At the end of the day the airplane is going to cost what it is going to cost. Builders fall in a hole thinking that the BH can be built cheap if they do it themselves. I pulled off amazing deals for the aluminum & steel by combining orders with another builder, using purchasing methods learned in years of managing projects to negotiate discounts for volume & cash. Buying the kit may seem steep but in hindsight I could have done something else for years & it takes great tenacity to stick with it until it is built. The number of home scratch builders that actually complete an airplane irregardless of type is very low.

In the time that we have been building, builder after builder have taken their first flight & the overwhelming majority are the quick build kit builders. A lot of scratch builders have started & folded. My hat is off to Eric Newton scratch building his Bearhawk in 4 years but he must have lived in his shop every minute that he was not working.

The really enjoyable part of building an airplane is the fabric, paint, interior, panel, cowl & trimming it out. Not the endless hours of making parts. A lot of builders start out thinking that they can scratch build on a shoe string budget which is not being too realistic. If a builder is any distance from a major center then shipping costs are a heavy factor so it is best to bundle as much in an order that will keep one busy for months. Order continually in a pay 'n play fashion is not rational if it requires shipping. Some builders are lucky that everything they need is within a reasonable drive and they avoid shipping.

We found a low Continental IO-360 210hp 6 cylinder fuel inject engine that the owner removed to upgrade. The engine cost a little more than a good core. We lucked out and got a good deal on a McCauley constant speed prop that was a first run that timed out & was an easy rebuild as it was basically a teardown, inspecting essentially new parts and assembly with new seals. The instrument panel is basic as it gets with a Dynon D180, a used King AT76C transponder, a Garmin GTR200 radio with intercom. The one splurge was the header exhaust built of 321SS by Experimental Exhaust in Fargo ND that is dual 3 into 1 with 2 heat cuffs for $1800 & Skis. When BH727 is finished it will be around $78K CDN. The CDN dollar was at par & occasionally better for most of the construction time so it would be close to the same as US dollars. If considering a fresh rebuilt engine and a larger CS prop then it could cost another $15K+.

This is not to discourage but to encourage you. If you go the quick build kit route you may spend a couple thousand more at the end of the day and saved years of your life. More importantly kit builders fly sooner and are more successful to complete their Bearhawk. You could start with the fuselage then get the wings later as that separates and breaks down the big hit of doing it all at once. Avipro has a thousand off if a kit is ordered before May 31 so that would cover a good share of shipping the factory kit.

I hope this is of value to you considering to build.

All the very best,
Glenn
BH727
 

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Thanks for your input, Glenn, that is some great advice to have in mind. Also thanks for passing on that link, it was a good read.

I was considering a scratch build because, at least at this stage!, the process of hammering out ribs and welding tubes appeals to me, as does the sense of accomplishment that comes with having made something. I'm not under the impression that building from plans is any cheaper, and so far I seem to be okay with the idea of the project taking 7-10 years :). That said, my wife might appreciate having an extra 3-6 years worth of her husband time back!

Regardless of the route I venture down I don't think I'll have any decisions made by the end of May, as tempting as that deal is.
 
Max,
It is a long time and it can either take over ones life or life gets in the way for it to fail. 10 years is a long time to where what was done years ago is a cold memory.

If I had a do over then it would be the kit for the wings as there is only one lifetime and we could have been flying years sooner. The fuselage goes reasonably quick & a wing kit would cut the construction time in half. The fuse needs fabric etc. so kit builders & scratch builders all have to do these activities and it is the place to make your own mark on the character of the airplane. The wing will essentially have the same appearance as other under paint & all have the same character no matter who builds it.

All the best in what ever you decide.
Glenn
 
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Glenn makes a good point. If anything take a look at the pre-formed wing rib package. It would save you a year of build time for not too much extra $.
 
Oh, that is great! Make what you want and buy the rest! I may do that :)

The parts market on bearhawkaircraft.com says the ribs still require straightening. Will that require forms or just a lot of time with a Bob stick?
 
Hi Max

I am on Vancouver Island in Duncan if you ever come this way.

I am now building the Patrol at home and my BearHawk 4plc I keep at CYCD.
 
That's awesome! I would love to take a look at yours one day.

I found out about the Bearhawk by watching a yellow one do touch'n'goes at YPK a year or so ago, perhaps that was yours?
 
I'm scratch building. Never built anything like this before. I am working 98% solo. I'm 640 days into my project. I have just under 10k invested, total and that includes wing steel and fuel tanks from Avipro. I have the right wing completely fabricated and I'm getting ready to rivet the skins, the left wing is completely framed and ready for skins. Both flaps and ailerons are completed. Again, total solo build. It can be done, and it does not need to take ten years. Do a YouTube search for "Desert Bearhawk" or check my FB page www.facebook.com/DesertBearhawk/

Don't let anyone tell you you can't do it, you can!
 
I have been following along on Facebook, it's been educational and inspirational :). Have you built any other aircraft previously?
 
Dave,

Your progress is something we all would probably like to replicate. 98% solo, 640 days, and satisfactory cost.

Do you think your costs for wing construction are pretty much complete now? Also, what cost did that include? Materials, consumables, tools, equipment, shipping, etc.

It looks like you are building it in your garage. That must really help with your progress.
 
I'm figuring another grand total at the very outside to finish up the wings including making the tips. I'm not counting the costs of the nav lighting. My numbers included tools, materials, shipping. Consumables were not considered but I doubt it adds up to much in the grand scheme of things.

Yes, I work in the garage, that surely helps. My plan is to build each sub-assembly at home and store it until it's time to put her all together.

Max, this is my first full scale and the first time doing sheet metal since A&P school 30 years ago. I have built about a zillion model airplanes! Not sure if that's a plus or not! :)
 
Dave and other scratchbuilders: What's your average build time per day? I'm talking an estimate of total hours logged divided by total days (weekdays and weekends) since you started. Just curious how I stack up! This could be a relevant bit to help with newcomers' expectations.
 
I work my project everyday in some way. It might be 6 hours in the shop or two hours reading/researching/placing part orders etc. I try to always get two hours in at a minimum. Basically I sleep, eat, work my job, or work my project. It's not gonna build itself and I want to fly her before I die. :)
 
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