Realistic Plans Build Time for Experienced Gas Welder

[Gimbles]

I am trying to decide on a plans build, as I really like the Bearhawk, but cannot afford a quickbuild kit. How many hours am I looking at if I'm a first time airplane builder, but an experienced gas welder.

Also, what is the cost for the raw materials for everything minus firewall forward and avionics?

Thanks.

[jaredyates]

Welcome to the group! It is going to be hard to get meaningful answers to those questions. Depending on how you work and how you account for your hours, you may have anywhere from 3000-7000 hours. That's not a very helpful answer! To give an example of why, do you count research and head-scratching time as build time, or only time when you are handling parts? Are you likely to purchase any factory-made sub-assemblies at all, such as seats? What about a baffle kit from Vans vs making your own baffles, or bolt-on exhaust system vs your own, or an airbox, or a tailwheel? Time and money are interchangeable in the build on a small scale as well as the large-scale kit vs scratch decision. You'll have many small choices to either drive down the purchase cost and drive up the build time, or to drive up the purchase cost and drive down the build time. Similarly, there is the question about how much time you want to spend hunting for bargains, vs just paying the regular retail price and saving hours of searching. You can find some good posts in the archives that discuss the cost and build time, but the short answer that I find most matches reality is that cost is not a good reason to choose scratch building over kit building. If you feel like you can afford to scratch build but not afford to kit build, then you are likely underestimating the cost to scratch build, or placing a very low (near zero) value on your time. You'll also be able to hear other opinions on this point, so keep in mind that mine is just one of many.

[JakeP]

> If you feel like you can afford to scratch build but not afford to kit build, then you are likely underestimating the cost to scratch build, or placing a very low (near zero) value on your time.

Approaching "zero" value per hour of scratch build, of course depends greatly upon who you are. If it takes 1000 hours of logged labor to save $12,000 vs a quick build fuselage (I'm talking about the LSA for our case), accounting for your materials costing say $3000, with the quick build costing $15k, and assuming you already have the tools, then you're paying yourself about $12 per hour. Knock it down to $10 to be conservative. That's what our numbers are turning out to be, if my math isn't whacky. That does not include head scratching time. If your day job pays $75 an hour, then $10 per hour on the build makes little sense. On the other end, if you're retired, or underemployed, and your time is abundant, then $10 per hour can be justified and you're saving money.

[mswain]

If you're good at welding, talk to Mark about getting the tubing kit. Might be a cheaper way to get going vs. full quickbuild kit. Also, Jared makes some good points. There are too many variables the builder controls to answer the cost question accurately. For example, I've got $500 in gas caps cause I wanted cool flush caps....which another builder might think I am crazy and use $10 used caps. Some people are good (and have access) to scrounge parts reducing cost. The cap strip material for my wings was $1100, but some guys cut sheet or angle and make them and save tons of $$. It's always a trade off of time & $$. I am getting close to finishing my wings that I started in December 2012. I am a first time builder but I am lucky and have access to 2 very helpful local Bearhawk builders that have largely kept me out of trouble. I am not trying to down anyone's dream, but there is a lot more cost than just aluminum and steel tubing. Just the rod ends for the flap and aileron hinges will set you back $600 if you buy them from Spruce. Rivets, Dimple dies, nutplates, rod ends, pulleys, tools, AN fuel fittings, AN hardware, control cable........it all adds up to significant expense.

Buy a set of plans and try to estimate all of the materials based on how you want to build. You can always sell the plans if you decide not to build, and you won't have lost much $$.

[jaredyates]

> If you feel like you can afford to scratch build but not afford to kit build, then you are likely underestimating the cost to scratch build, or placing a very low (near zero) value on your time.

Approaching "zero" value per hour of scratch build, of course depends greatly upon who you are. If it takes 1000 hours of logged labor to save $12,000 vs a quick build fuselage (I'm talking about the LSA for our case), accounting for your materials costing say $3000, with the quick build costing $15k, and assuming you already have the tools, then you're paying yourself about $12 per hour. Knock it down to $10 to be conservative. That's what our numbers are turning out to be, if my math isn't whacky. That does not include head scratching time. If your day job pays $75 an hour, then $10 per hour on the build makes little sense. On the other end, if you're retired, or underemployed, and your time is abundant, then $10 per hour can be justified and you're saving money.

The remainder of those savings can be accounted for in the resale value difference between the kit-built finished airplane and scratch-built finished airplane, in most cases. As with before, these are pretty approximate numbers and will vary.

[JakeP]

Yes, you are right, I agree that it can be accounted for in resale. However, as I said, it depends on who you are.

If one has to pay out $15k for a QB fuselage, they have to pay $15k. Put another way: If they have to pay $3k in materials but pay out $12k in labor to themselves, they clearly did not pay $15k for the fuselage from someone else, and they own the fuselage, and the cost of buying the plane is $12k less than if they bought the quickbuild. This part is simple. Whether you want and can get your $12k labor back is the big question.

If one pays $3k for materials and only commands $3k in sale to someone else, somewhere down the road, then they're at zero equity on labor. I don't believe that is the case for every builder/airplane, but it is definitely possible, and I do believe the arguments that the market itself appears to only care to pay for QB value. This part is fuzzy because it depends entirely on what a particular builder/aircraft can get for a sale. For discussion, let us assume labor equity is, as you say, zero, but let's maintain the cost of materials in the value of the plane.

Does the $12k lower equity matter if what they are mainly trying to accomplish is owning and keeping the airplane? That is a huge question. Are they willing to sacrifice $12k for the enjoyment of the build? Another good question. That is why I said that it depends on who you are. If I earn $75 per hour at my real job, it doesn't make a lot of sense if I wish to maintain the full equity of my real job labor transferred over to lost labor equity in my airplane (unless I simply loved building that much, or just didn't care what I did with my spare time). I would not be "saving" money, and I most certainly would not be saving time. Entertainment costs money too. Might be cheaper to build a plane than play golf when looked at that way! However, if I am retired and time means something completely different to me, and perhaps I don't plan on selling it in the remainder of my life, then $12k "lost" in labor equity doesn't mean the same thing either.

[Bcone1381]

I am 50, just started scratch building a Patrol, and have no experience with Aluminum shaping, or welding. Building a STOL type aircraft is something I have kind of been dreaming about since about 1982. For me, Scratch building is not a compromise decision. I find that I have always enjoyed working with my hands and now have a dream attached to it.

My point is, acting on a dream is a ton of fun. I should have started scratch building 15 -20 years ago. It is not costing me a bunch of money so far for materials. I made an $800+ aluminum purchase this month and I expect the materials will last me at least a year as I pound out all the rib blanks, and bend the spars.

If you think scratch building a bearhawk is a dream of yours, then I suggest you take the plunge, start, and find out. It will cost you a set of plans, then the first step is making the form blocks out of local lumber yard materials using wood working tools. I submit that one will know if they like scratch building if they find this first phase really exciting.

[LukeS]

An important question to ask yourself when evaluating the "cost" of scratch vs. quick-building, is do you consider the extra time (we're talking thousands of hours) to be work or recreation? Most people don't expect to be compensated for recreation, in fact it's usually expected that recreation will cost you something. This perception may change as your project continues. I currently really enjoy my time building, but that may change. If it starts to feel like work, I will strongly consider quick build options for the rest of my project. Also consider when you want to finish. If you are on any kind of timeline, I would strongly consider options available to speed up your build. I believe kit builders tend to enjoy a higher rate of project completion as well.

[mswain]

If you think scratch building a bearhawk is a dream of yours, then I suggest you take the plunge, start, and find out. It will cost you a set of plans, then the first step is making the form blocks out of local lumber yard materials using wood working tools. I submit that one will know if they like scratch building if they find this first phase really exciting.

I agree 100%. Building the ribs is the least expensive way to get a "feel" for what's in store. A sheet of aluminum, some tin snips and a bit of lumber can keep you busy for a year!

[Gavin Chester]

Welcome ! Here is my two cents. Seeing that you are a experienced gas welder and one of your questions is total build time. Build the fuselage first and "complete" it. You will get many VG moments as you build to keep moving you forward ( time will not be an issue). When you have it totaly done ( just needs wings to fly) and unless you are willing to continue building for a minimum of two more long years ( unless you are able to work full time on them ) Buy the wings and go flying ! If the cost to build and fly is more of the question ,buy a plane. If you only want to fly a Bearhawk ( who wouldn't ) and total cost is the factor, wait and buy one when it comes up for sale. If you still choose to build and do not get the building addiction (where time and money does not matter) you can always stop at the fuselage and sell it.

[Gimbles]

you may have anywhere from 3000-7000 hours.

Wow! This is discouraging. My heart sank when I saw these numbers. I may have to walk away from the Bearhawk, as I simply cannot afford the QB kit. Does anyone know of a good 4-place STOL that has a plans build in less time?

But before I move on I want to be clear about these numbers. To get more of a factual understand, I just want to consider the hours actually working in the garage. This would include momentary pauses (head scratching) to make sure I'm doing it right. But the hour estimate would NOT include getting on the computer at night asking questions on forums, like this one, or researching parts prices, or re-reading the plans, or lying awake in bed thinking about what I'm going to work on in the morning, etc. And also, not buying any pre-made parts but just what the plans call for.

So, what would be the average range of hours from pretty fast build, to pretty slow build for just the hours-working-in-the-garage?

cost is not a good reason to choose scratch building over kit building. If you feel like you can afford to scratch build but not afford to kit build, then you are likely underestimating the cost to scratch build,

This statement does not make sense. I appreciate the analysis but I'm just looking for facts at this point so I can make a decision. So, yes I'm not including the value of my time, in other words time value = zero.

The QB kit is $40k. If the material cost is only $10k, for example, then there is a savings of $30k, If someone simply cannot afford that price + the firewall forward and avionics, then a plans built which would save them $30k might be the difference between simply having a bearhawk or not having a bearhawk. How is that "not a good reason to choose scratch building over kit building."?

What is the raw material cost for the entire airplane minus the firewall forward and all avionics?

I found a website that stated it to be about $6000, is this accurate? And I'm talking about buying new parts from an online source that has good prices, not buying used stuff from a salvage yard, but not buying the $500 gas cap when I can get a normal one new for $50.

Thank you all.

[Battson]

Using a AB kit, and having no experience building aircraft, it took me about 1800 hours of real work from leaving to collect the kit, to first lift-off from the runway.

That's time of actual work hours completed, including driving around to get supplies and parts.

That does not include time spent researching building techniques, ordering parts and shopping online, talking to others about how to do it, etc. I estimate an additional 500hrs, give or take 100hrs, spent on those other activities.

I have been told before, that scratch building the wings and fuselage to the stage the QB kit arrives in, would add roughly 2000hrs extra work. That puts the total effort around 3800hrs estimated, which is well within Jarrad's estimate.

When I valued my time, I found I could easily afford the kit.
I could save the money to pay for the QB kit in those two thousand hours worked at my job, instead of in my garage, and that was a more efficient use of my time, overall.

The costs you have found estimates for are vastly too low.

[JakeP]

If you feel like you can afford to scratch build but not afford to kit build, then you are likely underestimating the cost to scratch build, or placing a very low (near zero) value on your time..

This statement does not make sense. I appreciate the analysis but I'm just looking for facts at this point so I can make a decision. So, yes I'm not including the value of my time, in other words time value = zero.

The QB kit is $40k. If the material cost is only $10k, for example, then there is a savings of $30k, If someone simply cannot afford that price + the firewall forward and avionics, then a plans built which would save them $30k might be the difference between simply having a bearhawk or not having a bearhawk. How is that "not a good reason to choose scratch building over kit building."?

I don't want to speak for him, but my interpretation is that Jared is just trying to point out that the money you "pay yourself" to match the quick build is likely worth zero, if you ever sell the aircraft, because buyers anecdotally have not been willing to pay as much for plans builds compared to quick builds. There is a perception among many that only a factory has the tools and skill to build airplanes to a high level of quality. That is not strictly true, but I admit there is also a lot of junk out there, and there are kit manufacturers who depend on the value of their kits being reinforced by any misperception that helps sell kits. I think it is perfectly reasonable to go in on a plans build as long as you understand this and the potential for non-return on your labor makes sense for you. It can be hard to afford and/or justify the cost of an airplane, so plans building is attractive!

More directly on your question: Yes, the time estimates seen here are realistic, and they vary widely. I cannot imagine building a Bearhawk in less than 2500 hours, but I've seen other builders do some crazy documented builds of other aircraft in incredibly low time where there aren't practically enough hours in a day to do what they did, but they did it. But those are highly experienced and tooled builders.

The cost estimates are also impossible to nail down, especially for plans builds, but $6000 seems low for parts and materials. However, for the LSA plans build, I am pretty sure we are about $3000 in parts and materials for the fuselage, minus covering and firewall forward. I'd guess the wings are probably about $3k as well, but someone else would have to chime in on that for real numbers. So there is a glimmer of hope that someone could do it for $6k, but man, that's stretching it in my imagination, because I think we've done it as cheaply as we reasonably can and the big Bearhawk is logically scaled up quite a bit more.

[Battson]

That is right.

If you can work 2000 hrs on the Bearhawk, or 2000 hrs at a paid job, then you can compare them to decide which one is a better financial use of your time.

Of course, if you enjoy the building process for it's own merit, or you don't want to value your time - such analysis isn't helpful.

[Chewie]

We are builders, are we not? And we are mostly pilots as well, are we not? Look at it this way - how many hours of flying will it take before you are satiated? Do you value your lost time when you go out and fly? "I'm tired of having all this fun! No reward is worth this!" If we have decide if each hour is fun or work, where do you draw the line? My income would have skyrocketed if I could suddenly "afford" the time cost I will apply to this project.

Besides, build time can't always be considered an opportunity cost unless it really is replacing time spent earning $. For me and many others, that's just not the case. I work on this thing at night, and honestly I'm not sure what else I'd be doing every day during that time. It's not like I'll find a job between 8 and 10 pm that pays $75 an hour!

I could save the money to pay for the QB kit in those two thousand hours worked at my job, instead of in my garage, and that was a more efficient use of my time, overall.

I like your reasoning here, but does that assume you are able to save up the value of a QB kit in less time than it takes to build to that stage?

[LukeS]

Chewie makes a good point that I would like to echo. My building time doesn't take me away from earning money. It's time spent on my days off, to allow me to step back from my job and relax. I work a variable schedule (I'm a nurse), and often build when my kids are at school and my wife is at work. So, building usually doesn't rob me of any family time either. My wife is also my bucking bar buddy. It does get my butt up off the couch, and into the shop to do something productive, educational, and enjoyable with my life.
Gimbles, you will have to decide if building an airplane is something you want to spend your time doing. The Bearhawk is a simple design, and I would not expect other plans built 4-place designs (there aren't many) to be significantly quicker or less expensive to build.

[dedgemon]

Okay, for what its worth.
I'm currently building a Patrol from plans. The wings are effectively finished, the tail is finished, and I've been building for 2 years. Note that this is quite a bit slower than I built my other airplanes because of the lack of time to devote to the project. Kids, etc.... I'm simply not spending the time in the shop that I used to. But its still slower than say a Vans standard kit build. I finished and flew my RV8 in 23 months.

My estimate is that by the time the fuselage is completed (welded, tabs, no covering ,no instruments, no engine, etc..), I'll have a little over $12K in actual cost in the project. Note that this includes buying a rib/spar web kit from Mark, plus buying a finished engine mount, and the gear oleos.

At that point I will basically have replicated the quickbuild kit and spent probably 3-4 years of spare time doing it.

Since I've got a working airplane to fly, this project is not about time. Its about doing some types of building that I haven't done before, and generating a relatively simple/inexpensive second airplane.

Note that peoples goals, desires, and experience vary WILDLY.

Having built several aircraft, I know that some of these types of decisions are really hard for folks to make. I always recommend that folks that have never built before start with a kit for the first one. Frankly, most of you will never finish otherwise. Many never finish WITH a kit. Not to discourage you, but plans building is MUCH slower and more painful than kit building. That's why the kit business exists.

Whichever way you go, Good Luck!!

[DesertBearhawk]

If you want to fly, go buy an airplane. If you like to build and create, solve problems, and feel a sense of great accomplishment, build an airplane! If you want to spend 5 years of your life being fingered as that "crazy airplane guy" while you build and the rest of your life as one of the elite that scratch built a airplane, order up a set of plans and get after it.

Bottom line is that building an airplane is a huge endeavor. Every timeline you lay down is going to be busted. Things just take time. So, be honest with yourself. Do you want to fly or build? There is no free lunch. Is it cheaper to scratch build, I can't say yet but I bet in the end I'm going to have spent 80% on my build that a QB kit would have cost. I am giving up several years to save 20% and that's putting my time at ZERO. However, when I roll the Desert Bearhawk up to the line at Osh, the pride I will feel will be priceless.

YMMV