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Wheel landing or 3 point landing, that is the question

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  • Wheel landing or 3 point landing, that is the question

    My son and I have recently completed a Bearhawk. We are 32 hours into phase one flight testing. I was able to fly the ac in considerable x wind conditions yesterday, and have some conclusions. These conclusions are based on 900hrs in tailwheel aircraft of other makes and models.

    The winds yesterday were 7 gusting to 17 knots 50 degrees off the nose. The ac handled the 7 knot side of the wind ok in the 3 point landing mode. However, on the 17 knot gust side, a wheel landing was necessary for positive control.

    I am curious to know what others feel in this regard. I am sure this subject is quite controversial.


  • #2
    Mr 4RT, a brave man you are! Not for the winds, but for raising the subject... I suspect this thread will be 'active' and attract many responses. Winds or no winds, 3 -point vs wheel landing would be a fine subject for a Bearhawk BBQ. Throw in your wind issue and we might have to call the local gendarme.

    My current aircraft is a Patrol. I've got some time in the 4 place. Approaching 2k tailwheel, all light planes. Below about 10kts, I prefer 3 point, or what I call "Tail Low Wheel Landing", which is well below wheel landing speed, but not quite slow enough to plant the tailwheel. More than around 10, or significant gust factor, I'd do exactly what you did: wheel land it. I'd wheel land it, jam the ailerons into the wind and clamp on the brakes, until the tail drops. At that point, it shouldn't fly. I just feel a bit more control, in that regime. Note: This is strictly an opinion.

    Bill

    Comment


    • #3
      Well it is all rather simple.
      The Bearhawk has more capability than most of us will be able to safely and comfortably handle.

      Ultimately at some point in a taildrager, the tail must come down, every landing, straight, no drift, and in control.

      Most wheel landings are excess energy landings, and as the speed and control diminish you may find that there is insufficient
      control authority to to maintain track.
      In that condition you are in a crappy place to power out.

      Be comfortable flying the plane in 3 point landing attitude, with power down the runway.
      if you can track it you can land it.

      What many fail to put in the conversation is
      what is the landing and rollout RUNWAY environment? Dirt, grass, wet grass, asphalt,
      crowned, cambered, up hill, downhill, tree lined, skinny, wide?

      Aircraft Control....... in a cross wind the Bearhawk benefits greatly from a little engine power blown air over the tail to keep the tail controls energized.
      Incorrectly rigged ailerons will hinder your ability to lower the up wind wing when slow.

      60 deg X-Wind 25k g 35k 3 point on pavement.
      good landing. Unable to taxi........ brake limited!

      90 deg X-Wind 12k 3 point on pavement.
      Bad landing. Unable to taxi............... plane on
      belly on runway!

      The difference was the pilot!

      Practice in different conditions and environments. Know your plane, know your self. Listen to your heart rate, finger grip, breath, focus, what is your inner voice connected to your yellow stripe whispering?
      Listen.......

      There are no notes in a violin.
      A musician creates magic!
      A hack creates a mess !

      Practice..............

      Comment


      • #4
        Well it is all rather simple.
        The Bearhawk has more capability than most of us will be able to safely and comfortably handle.

        Ultimately at some point in a taildrager, the tail must come down, every landing, straight, no drift, and in control.

        Most wheel landings are excess energy landings, and as the speed and control diminish you may find that there is insufficient
        control authority to to maintain track.
        In that condition you are in a crappy place to power out.

        Be comfortable flying the plane in 3 point landing attitude, with power down the runway.
        if you can track it you can land it.

        What many fail to put in the conversation is
        what is the landing and rollout RUNWAY environment? Dirt, grass, wet grass, asphalt,
        crowned, cambered, up hill, downhill, tree lined, skinny, wide?

        Aircraft Control....... in a cross wind the Bearhawk benefits greatly from a little engine power blown air over the tail to keep the tail controls energized.
        Incorrectly rigged ailerons will hinder your ability to lower the up wind wing when slow.

        60 deg X-Wind 25k g 35k 3 point on pavement.
        good landing. Unable to taxi........ brake limited!

        90 deg X-Wind 12k 3 point on pavement.
        Bad landing. Unable to taxi............... plane on
        belly on runway!

        The difference was the pilot!

        Practice in different conditions and environments. Know your plane, know your self. Listen to your heart rate, finger grip, breath, focus, what is your inner voice connected to your yellow stripe whispering?
        Listen.......

        There are no notes in a violin.
        A musician creates magic!
        A hack creates a mess !

        Practice..............

        Comment


        • #5
          I land my 4 place just like bdflies lands his patrol.

          Comment


          • #6
            I was taught to crab into the wind on final. This gives me a chance to actually feel and see how much cross wind there actually is. Somewhere before touchdown I straighten it out to the runway and most times like to do wheel landings, no matter what the wind. Much better view of what is in front of me. Very rarely will the wind “stay put” in one spot, especially at my home base. From the East it rolls over the hill and from the West it rolls over the hangers and all this causes it to flop back and forth. About 90% of the time I swear it sees me coming and will change from a headwind to a direct crosswind on final! If the runway is wide enough for my comfort I will land kiddie corner to minimize a strong crosswind. This takes practice. It just isn’t a natural feeling and kinda hard to do when you’ve landed “straight” to the runway all your flying life. It’s much easier to do on take off. I have noticed in my Patrol when the wind is strong and squirly and I’m slow on final and the plane is bouncing around, it seems like I have lost all control. Has anybody else ever felt this??? I am wondering if some VG’s on the horizontal would help?? If I remember correctly I was also low on fuel and this seems to make a difference. Especially in a 3 point, I have run out of elevator, but only in a low fuel situation.
            On our way home from OSH we ran into some God awful winds at Buffalo WY., 31k gusting to 41k in a quartering floppy crosswind. I didn't like it and neither did the Patrol, but together we handled it, and both survived to fly another day. ;-)

            Comment


            • #7
              Donna, if you can land your Patrol in 31 gusting 41, you're in complete control. And keep doing whatever you're doing. You're doing it right!

              Bill

              Comment


              • Flygirl1
                Flygirl1 commented
                Editing a comment
                Trust me, it wasn't a pretty thing to watch. We survived, but "complete control" is not the words I would use. Once inside the FBO I'm like HOLY MOLY that was horrendous!! Their like what are you talking about, thats normal stuff around here. ;-)

            • #8
              Wheel landings are more effective in the wind. It's a sure thing.

              The wing is not generating lift in a wheel landing, allowing you to slow down with some degree of control. You can use a negative AoA to hold the plane on the ground, provided you have the prop clearance for it (and the Bearhawk usually does).

              I give the following example to demonstrate the aircraft can do it, what follows was a bad idea on my part. I was able to land our Bearhawk (foolishly, in hindsight) in a 30 knot gusting 35 knot crosswind, 90 degrees to the runway. I thought we had no choice due low fuel, but there's always choice... This landing would have been literally impossible if doing a 3-point touchdown. We regularly negotiate 20 to 25kt crosswinds, the plane makes them easy provided you are current.... All those landings need a one-wheel landing, transforming into a wheel landing.

              Wind aside, I prefer wheel landings any time I need more control and more precision. I do three point landings when trying to land as slow as possible, or when landing on a large airstrip.
              Last edited by Battson; 10-15-2017, 10:43 PM.

              Comment


              • #9
                Well, on Saturday, I bailed on flying up to Gainsville, TX for the Antique Aircraft Association's fly-in, because of winds that were forecast to be 14 knots gusting to 25 about the time I would arrive, and even stronger when I would have gotten back home. I have very little tailwheel experience in crosswinds above about 8 knots, and the gust spread had me thinking "I really should get some more crosswind training before tackling that stuff." So I stayed home and cleaned out a closet. Not nearly as much fun, but when I did go outside, and the winds were whipping the branches around, I was pretty happy to be on the ground... As Clint Eastwood said, "A man's gotta know his limitations."
                Jim Parker
                Farmersville, TX (NE of Dallas)
                RANS S-6ES (E-LSA) with Rotax 912ULS (100 HP)

                Comment


                • Flygirl1
                  Flygirl1 commented
                  Editing a comment
                  You bet, like they say: "It's better to be down here wishing you were up there than up there wishing you were down here." ;-)

              • #10
                This thread is a little stale, but I wanted to add a couple of things here from my personal experience.

                While I have always preferred 3 point landings in very light aircraft, I find that the shock absorbing gear on my LSA makes the wheel landings easier than they were in Cubs, etc. with bungees. I find wheel landings in strong crosswinds to be better for me, but I also find 2 point landings (upwind main and tail wheel) to be fine in lesser winds. Of course, the strong, gusty crosswinds are the hardest. I usually wheel land those on one wheel, carefully lower the other main, and use brakes and elevator to hold negative angle of attack until well below flying speed. Proper aileron and elevator control is essential when taxiing, of course.

                I am much more comfortable landing tail wheel airplanes in strong crosswinds than I am with tricycle gear airplanes. Same with takeoffs and taxiing.

                Bob

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