What are you flying in the interim?

[Chris In Milwaukee]

Hi everyone,

While I'm working on the Bearhawk, I'm flying either a PA-28 Archer II or a C-172RG. That keeps me in the air while I'm on the ground, I guess you could say.

However, I'd love to get into a tailwheel airplane for the experience. And not just 10 hours with my local tailwheel instructor for the endorsement, but a full-time tailwheel airplane. So one of my friends on the field has a '93 Maule MX7-180A (180hp with oleo gear, 2400 lbs, a lot like the way the Bearhawk is set up). I figured this would be a great way to build time. He offered me a great deal on a partnership, and he took me up for a couple of hours to get a feel for it. I was able to take off and land without any problem that day (I had a couple of hours in a PA-11 last summer, but that's another story), and was excited about the performance of the airplane. The last thing to do was contact the insurance company. And then it came to a halt.

I got that call from the insurance company this morning, and they said that they checked with their underwriters, and not a single one of them would write a policy for me. I'm a PPL, single-engine land, with about 160 hours total. They circled back around and talked to the underwriter that is carrying my friend's policy and asked if they'd reconsider. They reconsidered alright. With $4985 a year and 50 hours dual in type. Ho-lee-cow. I think the book is closed on that beast now, unless something miraculous happens.

So what are you guys flying with the little wheel in the back? Something that's affordable to insure? I talked with my local TW instructor, and he suggested a Cub, Citabria, or Champ as potentially affordable planes, insurance-wise. All those little stinkers are spendy, and nowhere near the deal I'd have gotten on this Maule. Suggestions?

Best regards,
Chris

[Zzz]

About all you can do is find a tailwheel dual instruction situation and keep adding hours to your logbook. Or buy the cheapest taildragger you can find (C120 can be had for a dime) and fly the crap out of it. Everything changes in insurance once you have 100 hours tailwheel.

[Battson]

I was flying a PA18-90 rental, which was hard (as a rental)to find but made for cheap cheap cheap hours to get the crucial TW time.

Before buying the BH kit, I had really only been flying Skyhawks and Cherokees

We are using Lloyds of London to underwrite our policy, they were very happy to play ball with me (almost exactly your situation), although like Zane alluded to, I am hoping for a big price-break when we re-sign next year (have 108hrs BH time today, so over the magical 100 mark). Right now we are paying about 1.4% hull value for full in-motion coverage, $1M third party.

[Chris In Milwaukee]

I started my tail wheel last summer in a PA11-90 and got two hours in it. Sadly it was wrecked the following fall and that's that.

[S Lathrop]

I got my tail wheel endorsemsnt in a J3 Cub. I also belong to a flying club that has the Cub and two other tail wheel planes.

I have since been flying a C180 and have just over 100 hours tail wheel time, about 60 hrs. C180..

I find the Cub as hard as anything to land really well. I value my Cub time as teaching me more about stick and rudder flying than any flying I have done.

You will have to build tail wheel time. I think Cub time is as good as you can get for the buck.

[Phil]

I'm currently flying a Challenger II. Not very good prep for the Patrol, but at least it keeps my hand in the game. I'd love to get my hands on a Citabria since that's what I got my license in, but since I can't afford a newer one, I'm afraid I'd spend all my time and money keeping it flying, with not much left over for building my Patrol. That's part of why it's taken me so long to get started on my Patrol. I had an old Cessna that was a bit of a lemon, so all my money and a lot of my time went into maintaining it. The Challenger is about as cheap and maintenance free as you can get in an aircraft.

[Chris In Milwaukee]

I love the Challenger II. Love to have the latest long wing model with the 582. But like you said, new plane, less money for Bearhawks.

[Phil]

It's a fun little plane for cruising around locally, and a blast on skis. But I really miss having a cross country capable plane. More motivation to get my Patrol Built.

[Battson]

I got my tail wheel endorsemsnt in a J3 Cub. I also belong to a flying club that has the Cub and two other tail wheel planes.

I have since been flying a C180 and have just over 100 hours tail wheel time, about 60 hrs. C180..

I find the Cub as hard as anything to land really well. I value my Cub time as teaching me more about stick and rudder flying than any flying I have done.

You will have to build tail wheel time. I think Cub time is as good as you can get for the buck.

The Cub certainly is more challenging, as is the Cessna's spring gear IMHO. With the Bearhawk oleo gear (or Maule) you have a damped solution (spring + dashpot) which is far superior to just a straight spring.

I find I can get close to the ground and just plant the BH down onto the mains by polling forward from a three-point attitude. about 1-2ft off the ground. It sticks like glue with no bounce, and you're straight onto the brakes in a wheel landing attitude - this is perfect on a short, narrow, one-way airstrip with an uneven surface and no room to run off the side. The land thing you need to a floater of a landing. It was a fun weekend.
The Bearhawk gear is awesome.

[DesertBearhawk]

I'm not flying anything...

[Zzz]

The Cub certainly is more challenging, as is the Cessna's spring gear IMHO.

That's funny, I have found the Cubs and Champs to be the easiest taildraggers I have flown. I've found the heavier tailwheel Cessnas to be more challenging, mainly due to the extra mass and inertia. That's a good thing in some ways, but much less forgiving if you allow it to get out of line.

[Battson]

Lots of personal opinion in my reply.
We see a lot of wind, and I find that the Cub is lighter and floats about on landing. It can also bounce if you 'fly it on'.
The Bearhawk does neither of those in my experience (unless you get out of shape of course). It feels a much more stable platform to land.
my 2c

[Zzz]

I'm glad I've only got easy times ahead, then!

[Chris In Milwaukee]

For the US types, I wonder if you buy a cheap N-numbered tailwheel fat ultralight and fly it for 100-200 hours if the insurance company is kosher with that? It's got an N-number, so it's an airplane, right?

Just a thought since Champs are ~$20K+ and Cubs even more...

[jaredyates]

You could do a little bit of speculation on the medical rules. Sometimes, airplanes that are just slightly too heavy to be LSAs, such as the Citabrias and heavier Luscombes, are worth a little bit less than their lighter counterparts. If you were to buy one of those now to fly, then by the time you are done with it, maybe the self-certifying medical will be allowed for larger planes. At that point, maybe you'd see an increase in value. Odds are good that even if the exemption doesn't change, the plane will still be worth close to what you paid for it when you are done. See if you can get some time in a Citabria. I think you'll find that it is quite enjoyable. They come in several different engine sizes, which will also give you some good flexibility on pricing and operating costs. You'd have no trouble using it as a training platform for your son too. Another option would be to look for a flying homebuilt taildragger like one of the Wag Aero offerings. You could save quite a bit on only having to hire out the condition inspection, and not having to use PMA parts and such.

[Chris In Milwaukee]

Our local Tailwheel CFI has a Citabria that he teaches in, both tailwheel and aerobatics. I found a couple of Citabrias on Barnstormers for mid-40s. I think that they were 70s models. I did see a couple of Wagabonds on there as well, but they weren't great values that I could see. Nice planes, though. I also found a Champ or two for around $20K. I'd have to keep an eye on those because I'm not interested in anything I have to hand prop.

Got a call back from Falcon yesterday, also with a "no way Jose" on the Maule, and they also suggested that while it might be a bit more expensive from an insurance standpoint, an experimental might work out, like a Kitfox or an RV. Our local instructor prefers to teach in tandems (which is probably why he has a Citabria), so I've been keeping an eye open for those.

Training platform for my son is brilliant. That's how I can sell it to the CFO :-)

[Zzz]

There are a whole host of inexpensive tailwheel aircraft you could buy to train in, from Taylorcraft to Kitfox, but any kind of ownership has all sorts of overhead like storage, inspection, and any maintenance that becomes necessary, plus insurance if you want to insure (liability is always a good idea, even if hull value isn't important to you.)

Renting, while it appears expensive, is an easy hand-them-the-keys-and-walk-away situation. It's someone else's problem. I personally carry non-owned insurance that covers damage up to $80K, for flying rentals and friends' aircraft. It runs me about $750/yr.

Maules in particular are known for high insurance rates, as the collective pool of accidents per operations is higher than other types, unfortunately. That said, with 300+ hours tailwheel as PIC and no prior claims, the quote I got for insuring my completed Bearhawk, at $90K hull value, was north of $3,000 per year. Getting the tailwheel experience in now is going to save you a lot of headache in the future when you're ready to fly.

[geraldmorrissey]

I fly my trusty 1977 Cessna 150M that I've owned for 12 years. I fly it a lot. I have about 600 hours of conventional gear time so I'm not worried about getting checked out. I will miss 5 gals/hour however. Will probably go with a 0-320/fixed pitch and super light on the Patrol. The 150 will pay for my firewall forward. I will miss it.
Cheers
Gerry
Patrol #30 Wings

[Barry]

I fly a Citabria with my instructor when ever possible. I thought about buying a plane to fly while I was building, but that will take valuable time and money away from the Patrol build. It is cheaper and less time consuming to split the gas or even pay for all the gas when flying with a buddy than owning your own. Fly any taildragger any chance you can!

[Jflyer]

I fly gliders in LaBelle FLA. We have a Piper Pawnee for tow plane. (Old Crop Duster). We don't pay the tow pilots, but the tow pilots get to fly for free and log the hours. FARS changed a couple of years ago to allow private pilots to fly tow planes for hire if you're not carrying passengers or freight. The glider strapped to your ass doesn't count. They can release and fly away. Two years ago I received my tail wheel endorsement in a piper cub from another club member and the same day I was checked out in Pawnee to tow. I think I flew 80 hours last year but logged over 200 landings in the Pawnee. Tow plane T&L all day. All tailwheel time. And Pawnee with a 540 is a little hot rod. So, if you need tail wheel time, find a glider club near you and volunteer to be a tow pilot. Our club offers free memberships to tow pilots if all they are going to do is fly the tow plane. Since they're members, they are covered on the club's insurance.

[wingnut13]

I'm just learning to fly, the guy who is instructing me has a 1946 T-craft. He also has the only Waco S3HD.... maybe I'll get an hour in that later this summer. The plan is fly the T craft until the Bearhawk is ready.