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Patrol to Rans S7S comparison

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  • Patrol to Rans S7S comparison

    I wasn't sure the best section to post this. So I'll try this one. I currently fly an RV6 and am nearing completion of a Rans S7S (Rotax 914) with a partner. I'm considering building a Patrol after the S7 is done. I have a little time in an S7, but have not even seen a Patrol. For those of you with time in both, I would be interested in your comparison. Not a better or worse comparison. They are different planes with different missions. But for my purposes, considerable overlap in mission capability it appears. More of a comparison of which areas each excels. In particular I am interested in landing distances, cross country comfort, ride in turbulence, lowest comfortable loitering speed, and just how they feel. Also, if you've built an S7 and Patrol from the QB kit, how does the build experience compare. Building the S7 is pretty much just follow the instructions and put it together. OTOH, the Patrol QB appears that the portion in the kit is very complete, with a lot of room for "creativity" in what remains. Whether that is a good thing or not is up to the individual. So, any takers?

  • #2
    Hi Dave,

    I guess I’m qualified to comment on this comparison. I built an S7, the 2015 model, and currently own a Patrol, which I did not build. Background, I owned a Cessna 180 for 20 years and lost it in a hangar fire. The insurance money allowed me to scratch that building itch that I’d had for years. I wanted to build a Patrol but after considerable research and talking to builders, I decided to build the S7, knowing that it was an easy build and a great little airplane. I wanted to be back in the air in 2 years time and the Patrol build didn’t seem like that was possible for a first time builder that’s still got a day job with kids at home. Honestly, I was spot on and am glad that I built the 7, it was an awesome experience and it’s an absolute blast to fly. It planted a seed for building airplanes that is here to stay. I was flying 23 months after receiving the kit. That is a seriously fun machine with exceptionally light and responsive flight controls. In the fun department, I really can’t see how you can beat an S7. Easy, nimble, dirt cheap to fly, it was a blast.

    Now for the rest of the story. I’m a Barnstormers addict and saw Collin Campbell’s ad for his Patrol last summer. As much as I loved my S7, which was only 16 months and 160 hours into its flying life, I knew that if I ever came across a flying Patrol for sale, I would be very tempted. Heck, I had already started formulating plans to build the Patrol, it’s the airplane for me. I sprinted to Missouri and bought a fabulous example of attention to detail and craftsmanship. I sold my S7 and am 6 months and 90 hours into my Patrol.

    Generally, the S7 is an absolute blast and a very easy taildragger with short field capabilities that I’ve personally never seen before. Total performer. On the down side, It’s borderline ultralight and flys like it. The ride in turbulence is the worst I’ve ever experienced; but, I’ve never flown an airplane that weighs 720 pounds before. I happen to live on the west end of the Columbia River gorge, probably the largest venturi on the planet. Rainforest on one end and high desert on the other end, a mere 60 miles apart. The pressure gradient combined with the mechanical turbulence from the mountains results in an often ugly place to be in a small airplane. I have been scared shitless in the gorge in the S7. 15000 hours of flight time didn’t seem to change my level of concern, actually, it made it worse, I knew I was in a bad place. A winter day in the gorge that would get my attention in my C180 was a day that would have me wondering if I was going to live through it in the S7. A bit dramatic, yes, but that’s the point.

    The Patrol is simply the best 2 seat tandem taildragger out there. Mine is fixed pitch with an O360. Economy cruise is 125 mph indicated and I can easily do 135 mph at 10 gph. It rides the bumps very well and is, well, It’s a HOSS of an airplane. Citabria fun, Cessna 180 utility. I live in the land of the high dollar Carbon Cubs, airplanes that cost 3 times what my Patrol costs. I wouldn’t even consider a straight across trade for one of those, they are simply not in the same league for total performance. The controls are light and it’s a blast to pitch up into a barrel roll, wingover, aileron roll, or load it up with another guy and hundreds of pounds of gear and head for the backcountry. I’m very fortunate to own this machine. You say you want to build a Patrol....I say you’re a wise man, it’s unparalleled in overall performance and is an absolute blast to fly.

    Mike


    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by m.mooney View Post
      Hi Dave,

      ... the Columbia River gorge, probably the largest venturi on the planet. ... I live in the land of the high dollar Carbon Cubs, airplanes that cost 3 times what my Patrol costs. I wouldn’t even consider a straight across trade for one of those, they are simply not in the same league for total performance...
      Boy ain't that all the truth Mike! Can't throw a rock in the air without hitting a cub.
      Mark
      Scratch building Patrol #275
      Hood River, OR

      Comment


      • #4
        Mike,
        Thanks for the run down! I guess as far as the S7 handling bumps, that's about what I expected. The primary role of the S7 will be playing around in the local mountains and desert to the south. I'll have to make sure to do most of it early in the mornings. My RV6 will handle the aerobatic and cross country chores. If you ever get in the neighborhood of Pinedale, WY give me a shout!

        Comment


        • #5
          I think comparing the Patrol to the S7 might be the wrong comparison. The LSA seems to be in the same league.

          But there isn't a big difference in cost between building a Patrol or LSA (engine choice dependent). There is even less of a cost difference between building a 4 place and building a Patrol.
          Rans kits are definitely more thorough, or so I have been told. If you have never built a plane, it could be important (I never have).

          I think the Bearhawk line is the better overall airplane. Just a little harder to build for the first timer.

          Comment


          • #6
            If you looked at the bare fuselage of either the LSA or the Patrol compared to the Rans planes you would see much stouter & more rugged tubing in Bob's designs. Same for wing structure.

            An instructor once told me: "When is a J3 Cub better than a P51 Mustang? - when it has YOUR name on the owners certificate". All planes are good. But even Rans newest design with the aluminum skinned wing does not compare in strength or durability to Bob's designs. Bob & I went over to look at it and Bob pointed out many features that made for ease of building the kit and less expense - but were not as efficiently designed and not near as stout.

            It is true that the Rans is probably easier to build, but we are working to make the Patrol have more "standard" features and less need for decisions by the builder. Two examples - the new kits come set up with the ability to bolt in place front and rear Baxter throttle quadrants. Previously builders did different things. Also the fuel selector valve and gascolator installations are "standardized" now on both the Patrol & 4 place. We are working with Jared to detail better the Patrol building instructions to make the build easier for new builders.

            Both planes are good planes. But after all the work of building a plane, it is nice to have the best plane possible that meets your mission. Mark

            Comment


            • #7
              Thanks all for your input! As I mentioned, I wasn’t looking for a best vs worst comparison. Just a comparison of characteristics, realizing a Patrol and S7 have somewhat different mission profiles. My primary motivation in this is thinking down the road to the pair of planes that will cover the bases of what I like doing. For now, I’m thinking a Patrol and RV10 is likely my long term best combo. Although keeping my RV6 (or F4 Raider?) and pairing it with a 4 place Bearhawk might fill the bill, too.
              Anyway, I have fun with anything that flies! And I expect to have a blast with my S7 until I sell my half. I enjoy getting to experience different planes, even if it isn’t the one I want to keep forever.
              On a different note, I applaud Mark’s efforts to make available more streamlined options for building the Bearhawk, while retaining the flexibility that some prefer. Before deciding to build the S7, one of the main criteria was that it had to be buildable by ME in 2 years or less. The Bearhawk family of planes is outstanding. The more buildable it is by the average person in less than half a lifetime, the more of them there will be!
              Carry on!

              Comment


              • #8
                You’re going to love your S7, especially with the 914 up front. If I could have made it pencil, I would have kept mine but I’ve got 2 in college...$$$. Personally, I don’t see myself ever parting with the Patrol, but I do plan on giving it a partner in the hangar. An RV-14 build is probably in my future. 2 separate missions, 2 great machines. I would also love to build a Bearhawk B model. I also applaud Mark’s efforts to improve his kits and feel that they will be more attractive with a more comprehensive build manual.

                Comment


                • Mark Goldberg
                  Mark Goldberg commented
                  Editing a comment
                  I think I posted at some time what I was told about the RV14 manual. That Vans had one engineer and two draftsmen on the manual for the RV14 full time for 2 years, Step by step manuals are not so easy to develop. Jared is spending time getting the manuals improved, and I hope participation from builders will result in significant improvement. Mark

              • #9
                I built a Patrol and have a friend who has built two Rans S7's. We fly around together and I have flown his S7. It sounds like you are already aware of the differences in the build process so I'll focus on the flying differences.

                The two planes have very similar STOL performance but at different weights. If they are both loaded light the T/O and landing distances are very similar, enough that I'd say that anywhere an S7 can land so can a Patrol. At gross, I'm not sure as my friend always flies his S7 light when we are out playing off airport, but I'd guess that its still similar. The difference is how much more it takes to get the Patrol to gross.

                Low speed, below about 60 kts the nose starts getting a little high in the Patrol, the S7 can probably fly slower more comfortably, but I'm kind of guessing there.

                Cross country comfort, The Patrol is roomy, wide enough that you can move around and stretch. The longest cross country I've done so far was coming back from North east TX southeast OH, about 5.5 hours with two quick stops for cheap gas. If gas hadn't been much cheaper enroute than at both the start point and at home, one stop would have bee plenty. We were both comfortable and weren't dying to get out of the plane at the end of the day.

                AS for turbulence, I've only flown the Patrol in the typical summer afternoon bumps, maybe light chop, you feel it but its not uncomfortable, and there is enough head room that I don't bounce my head of anything. It rides a lot better than my Pacer did, but no idea how it compares to the S7 there.

                I have the Hartzell Trailblazer CS prop and at 75%, rich of peak, I get 126-132kts at about 11gph, depending on the day and the load. At about 70% I can lean back to Peak or just LOP and see 118-124kts at just over 8gph. Once I noticed that the extra 3 gph only buys me about 6kts I seldom feel a need for that extra speed.

                They are both good planes. It sounds like you are wondering you could replace the S7 with a Patrol and still go everywhere you can in the S7. I say you can. The question is do you want to be able to go the same places while carrying more gear and getting there faster?
                Rollie VanDorn
                Findlay, OH
                Patrol Quick Build

                Comment


                • #10
                  Thanks, Rollie!
                  That's the kind of info I'm looking for! The slow flight info is especially helpful, as a big part of the mission of either of these planes for me is cruising around the mountains looking at the elk, deer, moose, big horn, etc.
                  You mentioned the cruise speeds that you see. What tires are you seeing those speeds with? I assume you have some variant of Lyc 360.
                  Thanks again!
                  Last edited by WyoDave; 01-30-2019, 02:53 AM.

                  Comment


                  • Rollie
                    Rollie commented
                    Editing a comment
                    So far I'm running Desser 8.50's. I haven't put my 31" Bushwheels on yet because everything here has been so wet and muddy there isn't really anywhere to land off aipport. I'm running a Lyc IO-360 that is making about 210hp.

                  • Bcone1381
                    Bcone1381 commented
                    Editing a comment
                    Rolllie, Do you have a Parallel Valve or Angle Valve IO-360?
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