Prospective builder western NY

[BlueSkyRedSun]

My name is Zach, I am an A&P working in western NY (Le Roy, Batavia area). I found the Bearhawk doing some online research while attending A&P school a few years back, and later got to see a completed 4 place in person at last year's Great Alaska Aviation Gathering while visiting with my family. These airplanes have been swirling in my mind ever since.

I earned my private pilot license four years ago and have logged most of my time in 1963 172D model airframes. I have a few hours dual in a Maule M-5-180, but no tailwheel endorsement yet. Hoping to change that in the near future.

I am very interested in plans-building one of Bob Barrow's designs for two main reasons: I like the idea of being able to spread the cost of purchasing an aircraft over time while building piece by piece and on the same token, I would like to widen my experience and skillset by working through an entire airframe/engine project. I also like the idea of being able to have a much more involved role in how my airplane is constructed - I have seen some certificated aircraft that have been cobbled together over the years by many different mechanics. I'd like to minimize the number of times I say down the road "I wouldn't have done THAT if I had put this together".

Right now I'm still very much in the researching stage and trying to define my "mission" as we call it. I am a VFR pilot, hoping to continue on to an instrument rating soon, and would like a plane that is instrument capable, though I don't have plans to use a single engine in hard IFR regularly. Realistically, I see an instrument rating being a very useful safety net and perhaps a way to occasionally punch through morning fog into VFR over the top. I love flying in and out grass strips here in upstate NY, but would like something with a bit more punch than a 172 with a tired O-300 to get out of the tighter runways here. As far as passengers go, to date I rarely have flown with more than one passenger, partially due to weight and balance restrictions and partially due to a lack of finding willing ride-alongs. I would like to do some airplane camping where the spacious 4 place would be beneficial, but I don't fancy myself a backcountry hunter or equipment-hauling bush pilot. At least not where I am in life right now. It's just my wife and I, and while we would love to venture off into the wilderness of Alaska someday, the lakes and hills of New York are on the horizon for the time being.

I keep bouncing back and forth between the 4 place and patrol models of the Bearhawk. When I think I have my mind set on the patrol, I content myself with the Lycoming O-360 and maybe a constant speed prop - a decision I would be willing to make later down the road in the project when it comes time to invest in the engine. But when I get thinking that I might like the extra space of the 4 place, that allows me to daydream of the thrill of throttling up an O-540. I get reeled back in quickly, citing what I assume would be higher operating costs, more costly engine work, and maybe even "too much airplane" for what most of my flying has been - a solo, flightseeing and occasional cross country adventure.

I'm excited to hear from others who have been down this road, and welcome any input from those who would offer it.

Happy building and flying,
Zach

[carlpeterson]

Hi Zach,

Welcome to the forum and the world of Bearhawkers! It's good that you are considering what your mission will be while trying to select the right airplane. I'd offer that you might consider a 4-place as you can put the O-360 on them as well, however you can also mount a O-540 and run it conservatively yet still have punch when you need it.

I too tinker on planes for a living and can completely relate to the "I wouldn't have done that..." but usually it's more like "what on earth were they thinking?".

[rodsmith]

Hi Zach, don't overlook the Companion, same size as the 4-place but 2 seat only and limited to 4 cyl engines and 2200# gross. I grew up outside of Oakfield so know your area very well.

[svyolo]

Or the 4 place with a 4 cylinder engine and 2500 lbs gross. You can leave the rear seat out most of the time. Without the rear seat it weighs about 50 lbs more than the Companion. Costs the same to build, performs the same except for the 50 lb penalty. You get a huge cargo door, and double the cargo volume.

[geraldmorrissey]

Sitting on the center line makes you feel like a fighter pilot. Welcome aboard.
Gerry
Patrol #30

[spinningwrench]

Think about what your mission will be 90% of the time. A side by side would allow a bigger IFR panel but either the Dynon or smaller Garmin panels would work in the Patrol. I love the visibility from a tandem seat airplane.

[BlueSkyRedSun]

Thanks for the welcoming comments!

I do like the idea of having a baggage/cargo door in the aircraft regardless of the model type, which is one of the reasons I selected the patrol and 4 place designs. I did look at the companion, however, and I like the concept, I just think if I went that direction I would rather fly without a rear seat in the standard 4 place.

Are there any advantages from a complexity/build-time standpoint that would give the patrol an edge over the 4 place? Also, I don’t consider this significant in my decision making criteria, but can someone reference where basic aerobatics were tested with the patrol? Aside from a brief comment about it on Bearhawk’s website, I have found no information on what maneuvers were performed and any discoveries or recommendations on this specialized use of the airframe.

For my own reference, what would I be looking at in initial cost difference between an O-360 and an O-540? I am encouraged to read of some real world examples of dialing back a 540 to get similar performance to the 360. I’ve been reading that Bob has actually tailored engines for individual builders on these projects at prices significantly lower than factory new? Is that accurate?

[svyolo]

There are some long threads about engine selection and its' effect on useful load and CG. Lots of pluses and minuses. Should be easily searchable by "engine choice" or selection.

[Rollie]

Welcome aboard Zach, I have a Patrol and I'm very happy with it. Most of the time it's just me in the plane. Sometimes I have a passenger and sometimes I have a passenger and two 55-60 pound dogs. We all fit but with the dogs we are pretty limited on luggage space. I chose the Patrol because I like the center line seating for going into tight, unimproved strips. The visibility out both sides is a little better. But I made that choice when I was flying a Pacer I used to have that when I would drag it in slow to get into a short strip would be really nose high, blocking my visibilty to the front and to the right side, making it tough to judge my distance from obstacles on the right. The four place BH doesn't really have that issue as with those huge flaps it doesn't really get that nose high unless you get all the way down to or below the power off stall speed. So either one is fine for going into tight strips.

I have full IFR instrumentation, 2 of the small G3X's and I had to get a little creative on where to put everything as the panel got full quickly. With the 4 place you could use the bigger displays and still have room for everything in the panel.

Another thing to consider is where you want your passenger to ride, or where they might want to ride. Beside you or behind you. Also some people who are susceptible to motion sickness get sick easier in the back seat, I don't know why. I've had a couple people get sick in my back seat, maybe they would have got sick in the front too, I don't know.

Both planes are great choices, and as far as building them, there isn't much difference. Scratch building is a big undertaking and after you spend all that time building a plane it's kind of important to have the plane you want.

I don't know Bob's prices but I do know he will build you an engine pretty much however you want it. Options like new cylinders or used overhauled cylinders, etc. I've heard his prices beat pretty much any other source. I was going to use a Bob engine but my mechanic talked me into getting a timed out engine from a salvage yard and overhauling it so I could count that experience toward my A&P. I'm pretty sure I spent at least as much as I would have paid for a Bob engine.

There is a nice write up about aerobatics in the booklet that comes with the Patrol plans. A guy went out and did loops, rolls and spins and gave some details and said the airplane does them all well.

There are some cool options for scratch building. You can get a lot of parts from Bearhawk like a tubing kit that is all cut to length and notched. It looks like it doesn't cost much more than it would to just buy the tubing elsewhere. You can buy ribs and spar parts or spars, lots of options depending on just how much you really want to build from scratch.