Soon to build 2 place

[thunder669]

Good morning,

My name is Jake. I am planning to start a build in the near future. a little about my background, Grew up building and flying RC, got into ultralights about 10 years ago. Scratch built a MiniMax Eros 1650. Started scratch building a Sonerai, had fully welded up the fuselage. Then I met my wife, and knew the Sonerai wouldn't work so we bought a Piper Comanche. now that the kids are older and never go with us, most of my flying is solo or me and the wife. Because of this we sold the Comanche and bought an RV4. we love the RV and have tons of fun with it, but with the lower cost of ownership we are thinking we may want a second plane for a different mission and I'm itching to build again.

Since we want to be able to fly into short rougher strips with a bit of camping gear I've been researching a lot of STOL style planes. The more I look around the more I keep coming back to the Bearhawk for the option to scratch build as much as you like plus the flight qualities I've read about. I am debating between the Patrol and the Companion. I am thinking something with an O-360 and Ground adjustable prop for light weight and cost but able to change based on mission of the day. I am 6'2" 230lbs and wife is only 140lbs. I do have a bad back so we cant camp too light because I need atleast a good air mattress instead of the ground and the wife likes a bigger tent if it for more then a night or 2. Realistically how much weight can you get into back of patrol? How pitch sensitive does it get, My RV is 2 different planes to take off and land depending on if solo or with passenger. it looks like the Companion can carry more but just being a modified 4 fuse i wonder how much extra dead weight I would be carrying around compared to the patrol and performance loss? Also without any companions flying yet there is a lot of unknowns. with the wide body of the patrol it seems it would actually be more spacious for passenger comfort the the side by side.

I appreciate anybody's thoughts and input on these questions or maybe some others I haven't thought of or mentioned

Thanks,
Jake

[Rollie]

Hi Jake, I built my Patrol on the heavy side, comfortable seats, soundproofing, full IFR, autopilot and constant speed prop and came in at 1269 empty. I set my max gross at 2100 with the understanding that it is designed to 2000 at utility cat standards and I don't do unimproved strips when over 2000 lb. I usually keep the tanks full (330 lb) and I really don't see much difference from flying solo to being at max gross. Takeoff roll is a little longer and it doesn't climb as fast, but as far as handling and landing go, I haven't noticed a difference other than the position of the trim lever.

The reason I set my gross where I did is that is about 20 lb over full fuel, me, my wife and our two dogs (65 lb each). Every time I load the dogs in the baggage area, I have 150 lb back there. With all of us and tool kit, tie downs and a small bag I can't quite fill the tanks so maybe I only have 5.5 hours of fuel instead of 6.5

My Patrol is like all the Bearhawks, forward cg when solo and by my math as long as I follow the 150 limit in the cargo area, I can't get to the rear cg limit.

As far as the Companion vs the Patrol goes, that is really just a personal preference for side by side vs tandem with the expected trade offs. Companion is wider so I would expect it to cruise a bit slower on the same power, The baggage goes where the back seat would so not as far aft which means you could put more weight there cg wise plus it is wider than the baggage area in the Patrol. Of course the Patrol seats are roomier since you aren't sitting beside your passenger but again that is a matter of personal preference.

[thunder669]

That great info, thanks! I just put full IFR Glass in my RV4 that's more of my go places plane. This I plan to keep as light and simple as possible, But with modern electronics will probably still have glass, just maybe not spend the money on an IFR navigator. I am leaning towards the Patrol, will be nice to see out both sides if flying into any back country stuff, though I've never landed off airport, but do love grass airports. my weight penalty will be wanting to do bush wheels and stuff

[JimParker256]

FIrst off, welcome to the forum.

The baggage compartment of the Patrol is very large - much larger than you would think. And there is a good bit of space below the rear seat as well. As for the W&B aspects, when I took a demo flight at OSH, I sat in the back seat. At the time, I weighed about 325 (now down to 280 and dropping). The demo pilot made only a single trim adjustment right after takeoff, and never touched the trim lever again. I was amazed at how good the controls felt compared to my Citabria. I thought the stick forces were very well harmonized, and it just felt really good. It didn't feel like we were loaded aft CG at all to me. I later did a rough W&B calculation, and we could have carried probably 150 lbs in the baggage area without any problem. So I suspect you and your wife would find that neither space nor weight/CG would be much of a factor for you.

Good luck!

PS - I'm no longer building the Patrol, but that was strictly a medical / physical limitations issue, and not because I do not absolutely LOVE the Patrol. If I could snap my fingers and have the build done, I would be flying one, for sure. Amazing airplane!

[thunder669]

Thanks for the great info, that is definitely the way we are leaning. my wife prefers the looks of the patrol and being able to see out both sides (she loves photography). Of course she also likes to see out the front and see the instruments. we looked at a friends 4 place yesterday but unfortunately he wasn't around for us to sit in but it allowed her to see the basic looks of what the companion would look like. sorry to hear you aren't currently building wish you the best on whatever the medical issues are

[Charlie Mike]

Welcome Jake,

You should talk to Bob about the companion.
Looks like there's room in size and weight for baggage.
We share same characteristics in height/weight, wife, camping gear and bush wheels
I prefer side by side flying, but it's a choice.

I just bought the plans of the companion to study them.

[thunder669]

I might do that, took the wife to our community hangar yesterday where there is a 4 place so she could see what one looks like up close since the companion uses the same fuselage. we are still weighing the pros/cons, but at the moment the scale is tipping towards the patrol, thanks for the input

[svyolo]

Just to be a pain and add to your choices, the Companion fuselage is just a slightly lighter 4 place fuselage, minus the baggage door (30 lbs) and thinner tubing in a few places. The baggage bulkhead is moved forward one fuselage station. A 4 place is only a 4 place if you put 4 seats in it. A finished back seat weighs 20-30 lbs. Using the same engine, a 4 place, finished to the same standard, minus the back seat, probably only weighs 50-70 lbs more than a Companion, and is punching the same size hole through the sky. For that extra weight you get a huge cargo door, double the cargo space, and 250 lbs more useful load. The benefits of the Companion over the 4 place? Slightly lighter, CG closer to optimum for handling when flown light. Lighter always makes an airplane fly a little nicer.

Same cost/time to build, same hole punched in the sky. Similar performance using the same engine. The Companion might fly a bit more like a Patrol. The 4 place can carry a bunch more volume and a little more weight. 4 seats when you need it. You can put a big motor in it if it suits you.

[thunder669]

I like how you think. Of course if I were to do a 4 place I think i would have to move up to a 6 cylinder engine and constant speed prop which drives the cost up substantially. I plan to keep my RV so to afford 2 planes I need to keep costs down. We are leaning more and more towards the Patrol with a ground adjustable prop and building as light as possible with a few comforts and goodies like big tires. again thanks for the input and I like how you think

[JimParker256]

Maybe not... You might be able to find an O-540 for the same (or even less) cost as an O-360. That's because so many people are building RVs and snapping them up. And, as has often been pointed out in this forum, an O-540 burns pretty much the same amount of fuel flying at the same speed as the O-360 in the 4-place. (Same HP to fly the same speed, so only a very slight increase in the fuel burn due to the extra weight.)