Insurance

Flygirl1

Flygirl1

Patrol#241FLYING
Thought we would have insurance by now--not so. Read on an earlier post of costs ranging from $2100 to 2500. Wondering who did you get these quotes from? A bit shocked when Avemco just quoted $3100. We both have over 3500 hours taildragger time and they said they wouldn't insure us for any amount of $ for the first 10 hours either. Donna
 
Heather at Regal Aviation Insurance is who I used to insure through and whom I had give me quotes for my 4-place. All I needed was a checkout or previous BH time.

Honestly I'm getting a bit nervous about insurance because I'm so far out of experience and other BHer's are getting quotes that are much higher than the one I got a couple years ago. I just might get priced out of my airplane before it's even done.
 
Our insurance is still getting cheaper every year.

It's the underwriter who matters to your pricing structure, they decide the price you pay. Find someone brokering with an aviation friendly underwriter. Our underwriter is Lloyd's of London, through a local broker.

The broker doesn't set the price, they are essentially just a middleman taking a cut for the local provision of the service. You want a good broker, but they aren't setting the price.
 
I'm still building and don't have insurance yet, but last year I started looking into it. I found that Avemco was nearly double that of Falcon with EAA. Avemco couldn't explain why either.

When you use EAA they automatically include zero deductible from day one and first flight coverage at no additional charge.
 
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I've had good experience with Epic Insurance. See info below;

Bill
 

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I've had a good experience using Bill White Insurance (http://bwifly.com) to handle my 4-place BH for the last two years. My insurance is provided by AIG. I'm a very low-time pilot (a little over 200 hrs total time, about 50 TW and no BH time when I started). The first year the premium was $3,600 based on a $70k hull value, $1m liability and no deductible. The second year I had about 25 BH hours and it went down to $3,200. The only requirements were a few hours (maybe 5) of transition training before solo and an hour of solo before carrying passengers.

Incidentally, I added my CFI buddy who is a 25k hour airline pilot with around 7500 hrs of TW time but no BH time for no additional cost. Only the two named pilots are covered.

Note that coverage for the first 10 hours wasn't an issue for me because when I bought the plane from the original builder it was already well out of Phase I.

For comparison, Avemco quoted around $4,400 for the first year. I didn't bother asking them when it was time to renew.
 
Since this morning we have managed to get another quote from the broker we used during the building process. We called 3 weeks ago, not sure what took so long. Squeaky wheel gets the grease I guess. They quoted $1900 ($100 thousand hull and normal liability) with 1 hr. solo and 2 hrs duel and the person doing the dual would have to get the approval of the insurer, who I think was AIG. Moving onto EAA to see what first flight coverage they can do for us before the check is in the mail.
 
Now isn't that interesting! You know the plane and it's systems better than anyone, you've got 3,500+ hrs tailwheel time and they want you to get 2 hrs dual... Will the CFI have to get some solo time, for familiarization? Will he/she be covered?
insurance company logic...

Bill
 
We asked the question about CFI qualifications and she could not answer yes or no. She is continuing to look into it though. Yea, how do you get someone with experience in your experimental aircraft. More importantly to me is the fact it has a glass panel, but they didn't ask that question. I guess if they approve the CFI's credentials, they'll cover him. If I was a CFI I would want to get VERY familiar with an Experimental I was expected to give dual in!! D.
 
Just heard from EAA--They will require a CFI to give me a check out and the CFI to have 25 hrs in make and model. Lots of other requirements for the CFI like 750 TT and 250 TW. Cost $2143. Ya have to laugh, or you'd cry. :rolleyes:
 
The other thing the FAA did was give Dennis a different quote. I have more ratings and about 1000 hrs more tail wheel time and he will pay about $150 less than me. Like i said--laugh or you will cry.:) D.
 
Ok, one more update came in from EAA -- A new quote for me that has lowered the cost to match Dennis'--$2065.
 
Flygirl1 said:
Since this morning we have managed to get another quote from the broker we used during the building process. We called 3 weeks ago, not sure what took so long. Squeaky wheel gets the grease I guess. They quoted $1900 ($100 thousand hull and normal liability) with 1 hr. solo and 2 hrs duel and the person doing the dual would have to get the approval of the insurer, who I think was AIG. Moving onto EAA to see what first flight coverage they can do for us before the check is in the mail.
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I'm curious who this brokers is; that's a great quote, IMO. Brokers can have some effect on premiums; I know this from personal experience.

Insurance is tough in these situations and it can be very frustrating. I got lucky and had a friend take me up in his BH and show me a few things. Then I made friends with another guy who let me fly the phase 1 on his airplane because he couldn't. The insurance on my airplane covered me in ANY airplane I was flying up to 150% of my insured value. No checkout requirements or anything. I got lucky again and didn't wreck that airplane as I taught myself how to fly it.

I suppose it is worth noting that Avemco was the only company that would insure me and my previous airplane when I had 0 TT. They were also really lax with their CFI requirements, needed to be current in the make/model. I left them after the first year because I was then insurable by other companies which were less expensive.
 
Wow! Your planes are finished and inspected. You're holding airworthiness certificates. After years of blood, sweat and (maybe) a few tears, the holdup is insurance!! I really like the part about requiring the CFI to have 25 hrs in make and model. Good luck with that one!
Note to self: Start working on insurance very soon...

Good Luck!

Bill
 
So, If you received a 2 hour CFI checkout in a friends Patrol, and soloed your friends Patrol for an hour, you would be insured to fly your brand spanking new, just finished, never flown Patrol during the initial test flight.
 
I think you are correct. Still not sure how much Patrol time the CFI needs in make and model, but under the impression he would need some. D.
 
The final results of our insurance quest - 0 for 0. We will fly without it for a few hrs. AND BE VERY CAREFUL DOING IT!!! The best quote we have is from AIRCRAFT & MARINE ASSURANCE AGENCY, Out of Vancouver Wa.. (AIG was quoted ) 1-800-466-4944 If interested speak with Denae. 1 million liability, 100 K per seat and $100 thousand hull. With all kinds of TW time we saw prices between $1974 and $2118. With 2 hours of dual and 1 hour of solo. CFI-needed experience in Make and model, but i'm not sure at this point how much time. We have decided to go without until we have a few hours and then we'll start the process over again. D.
 
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People have different views and opinions about insurance. I've got a friend (with significant means) who insures everything he owns and wouldn't consider otherwise, even though he could well afford the loss. Another friend abhors insurance and has none on any of his many "toys".
Personally, I have never insured hull value of a plane. Liability insurance is pretty easy and inexpensive. If I ding it, I'll fix it. My $0.02

Congratulations again on your first flight!

Bill
 
Part of what stinks about the aviation insurance business is that once a broker quotes an underwriter, the underwriter will not let another broker provide a quote. So choose carefully before you ask for that first quote. My first flight coverage was through Falcon underwritten by AIG. I had 50 tailwheel and lots of other time, and it was north of $3000. This year it was just over $2000 with 200 in type and 250 tailwheel. It seems like I'm on a different underwriter each year, having only used Falcon/AIG for the first year. I guess that means I have a good broker who is working hard to shop around for me. We do have the minor complication of wanting to have the option to do some commercial coverage for transition training, but we always get quotes with and without that option. If it was going to cost much more, I'd be fine with pausing the training for a year.
 
Something to think about, I lost my Skyhawk and hangar back in 2008 to Hurricane Ike. The plane was insured with AIG they where prompted to come out and I had a check for the full amount within a few weeks , great . When I ask the adjuster about buying it back he said take the money and buy anther plane but if I was really interested to go to their Web site and bid. A local FBO and A/P that buys and rebuilds plane ask me about it and I told him it know belongs to AIG he said forget it, that their the only Insurance that he knew of that would not sell the plane on site. So if you wont your baby back to rebuild would you have to bid against the world ?
 
I watched the Video Chris posted in post #22. I wondered if a little organization we could bring down insurance rates for our fleet. In the video he said a small fleet has higher insurance rates. Then he talked about the "Loss Ratio" or dollars insurance companies pay out over dollars they take in. Then he talked about Parts Availability.

Could someone do something to lower our fleets Loss Ratio? Are you a CFI? An insurance company would love it if our fleet developed a training program in conjunction with the their industry that addressed the highly probable losses. We lower the loss probability, and hopefully lower our rates. The Mitsubishi MU-2 community did this 20 years ago and it made a big difference.

Regarding parts availability. Factory New Bearhawk Parts are readily available. Its even a benefit to pay out a loss for a Bearhawk, because Mark Goldberg can get us parts....new parts...any new major airframe part for a lower price than any certificated aircraft flying today. Individual ribs for peanuts, a $150 for a wing tip, a lift strut for $300, the entire horizontal stab for $1000, $9000 for a whole new wing.

I wonder if we have high insurance cost because the Bearhawk is comparable to a Maul which has needed a larger rudder since 1941, and new wing on a Maul may be something like $18,000, a lift strut is $2400, a wing tip is $1800.
 
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This is an interesting discussion. I nowhere close to needing insurance and being a low time pilot it is a concern. In reading Bcone's post it brought the question to mind,"Is the Bearhawk community large enough to form a COOP to buy insurance as a group?" Hopefully this would help all of us on rates.
 
When I purchased my Interstate in 2013 I had zero tail wheel time and hadn't flown for 20 years. I insured through Global Aerospace for $1957 the first year. The only requirement was 15 hours in make and model with a CFI. I hired a CFI, who also owned a Interstate, to give me some dual and then fly with me from OR to NE. Total time logged was a bit over 15 hours. The following year I priced it through AOPA and it dropped to $1323 for the same coverage. This year, with around 160 hours tw time, it is $1326. Not much of an increase in 3 years! AOPA may be worth a look?
 
Now that we have 18 hrs. we have a new quote---This is $100K hull for the Patrol, 1M/!00K liability--EAA: $3088. A company called Acceleration: $2085 w/$500 deductible in motion and $0 not in motion. AIG: $2118 w/$0 deductible in and not in motion. She said this would most likely drop after 50 hrs. but if we bought the policy today, it would stay that price for a yr, no matter how many hrs we had. She also said that liability portion of that was around $500 and everything else was hull. I guess if you HAD to have it, a person could lower the hull and save some $, if you like to gamble. From previous notes AIG required 2 hours dual and 1 hr. solo--for the same price as today. Also form reading my first posts none of these quotes are adding up. Looks like a huge swing depending on what day you call. Maybe it's Friday and things are more expensive on Friday. D.
 
If you don't mind me name dropping, and you haven't yet committed, you might give my agent a call. She found an underwriter that would cover me in the Maule for $1500 when nobody else would touch me for less than $3500-5000!

Stephanie Dennis
Light Aircraft Account Executive
Gallagher Aviation
877-913-6247
(M-F 8:30 – 5:00 EST)
Referrals are always appreciated!!

Formerly NationAir Aviation Insurance

Arthur J. Gallagher Risk Management Services, Inc.
595 Bell Ave / Spirit of St. Louis Airport /
Chesterfield, MO 63005

Direct: 877-913-6247 I Fax: 636-532-3646
www.ajg.com/lightaircraft / | www.ajg.com
 
I have secured $1 mil liability only. $400 for phase 1 and $550/yr afterwards. I made a few calls, trying to get an 'open pilot ' policy, but no dice.
On the subject of lowering premiums by reducing hull value, I'll pass along something that I was told, a while back; When the damage rises to 60% of the insured value, the plane is totalled. You get your check and the company owns the plane, which they sell. 60% of $100,000 value is a significant amount of damage. If that same plane is insured for $60,000 (to reduce premiums), a bad ground loop just might get the plane declared a total loss. You get the (smaller) check and the company gets the same (less damaged) plane... Bottom line is not to reduce the hull coverage to reduce premiums. If you're going to insure the hull value, keep the value real.

Bill
 
Yea, we had that conversation. Is it worth buying back from the insurance company?, you'd probably come out on the wrong end of that deal. When I gamble I look for the penny and nickel machines, (if they even have those anymore), so full coverage it is. I believe the only way to maybe save any $$ is to insure during those months you fly the most. I've added for a trip to OSH before and taken it back off that winter.D.
 
I've got my Patrol covered with a builders policy for now. I need to let them know when I am ready to move it to the airport so it will be covered in case something happens during the move. I haven't gotten a quote yet for the phase one or for after yet, but I'm planning to stay with Parrish-O'Neil. They are a broker and always found good prices for my Pacer insurance. I was paying around 950 a year and most people on the short wing forum were paying around 1200-1500 for similar coverage. It never went down because I kept my wife on the policy and she never got above about 50 hours in the thing. I'm planning to insure it for what I have spent on the build but I'm thinking of a high deductible, $5000 if that is a option. I figure that if I damage it less than that I'm not likely to report it to insurance anyway. I built it, I'll fix it. I figure if its more than $5000 damage, its probably a prop strike or something that I can't just fix with time and spare parts I have left over. Hopefully in a couple months I'll be getting quotes and finding out how this thing flies.

If you want to check them out Kimi at Parrish-O'Neil has always been good to me. 740-397-6737
 
It seems that different underwriters have different policies on the 60% repair value issue and then they total it. I have seen some companies use an 80% number to hull value before they will total. Mark
 
I think since we had someone checking we're locked out for a while? There is one company independent of all that, I think it's Avemco, but last time I checked with them they were way off base for price. But every yr it seems rates change. One will be high and the other low and visa/versa next time. Considering our history of tail wheel time and accidents occurred, I'd insure us for next to nothin, but....

So a couple of months?? Good for you. You must be getting excited. You should be!! It's a real hoot, your gona LOVE it!!!! Get those Gremlins fixed if you have any and see you at OSH??D.
 
Our Insurance Gal called us and came back with a lower quote. Today we can get it from Aerospace Insurance MGR for $2040, 0 deductible, 100K hull, 100k liability per passenger, 1M liability, $5K per seat medical. This includes anybody with the proper time in T.W. and type. So Dennis is covered in mine and visa versa. I was gong to hold out for some more time, but based on some of my landings the other day maybe waiting is not a smart thing to do. We were discussing a prop strike somebody had that destroyed the engine. We know someone personally who sliced through the wing of a Taylor Craft. Didn't actually hurt the prop or engine, but had it been a very expensive Whirlwind, it would have shattered I'm sure.
 
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Did this mean that coverage for each plane is $1020 with that coverage? If so that sounds reasonable to me. I worried since I'm a low time tail wheel pilot (as none right now) what mine would run.
 
I wish it wasn't but...That quote was for each plane. Not sure the difference in our T.W. time is considered, but in the past her quotes did say mine would be a bit cheaper. But I have a couple of ratings that Dennis does not have and that might mean more. I will ask when I sign up for coverage. I will also ask about having a deductible. She didn't offer and I forgot to ask.

I think it might be a good idea to seek out some T.W. training, for lots of reasons, ;-). Have somebody video you learning to do wheel landings. Better yet, take the video from inside--from your perspective it's always worse than it looks. Also you'll want it for your memoirs. And you might make some bucks on Home Funniest Videos!! Do you have builders insurance?? D.
 
Just got my renewal quote from my broker for the '65 7ECA. First year was $728 ($25K hull, 1MM/100K Liability) with the requirement that I get 10 hrs dual and the TW endorsement before soloing. The renewal this year (same company, same coverage) will be $548. That's with 1800 hrs TT, 40 hours TW, Commercial ASEL, Commercial/Instrument Helicopter. I'm should be saving up for my first year insurance for the Patrol, I think... LOL
 
I'm due for insurance next month. My broker is shopping now.
I was a bit shocked last year when I bought the plane and had to pay 3200. for 100k hull. I'm a current CFI with over 3000TW and I had 200+ Bearhawk hrs when purchased.

If it doesn't drop on this quote maybe I'll plug in a different N number and look at another broker.
 
We finally have insurance on the planes. Our insurance agency came back with a new quote for the 40 hrs we have of $1896. Only a $3 difference from a quote we had at 18 hours, so I figure it’s the best we are going to be able to do. That’s for each plane at a value of 100K on the hull, $0 deductible in and not in motion. This is coming from a Company called Aerospace. If I crash and bang up my plane as many times as I have in some of my dreams, It'll pay for itself.:D D.
 
Flygirl1 said:
I was gong to hold out for some more time, but based on some of my landings the other day maybe waiting is not a smart thing to do.
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Luckily bad landings come in fits and spurts.

On another note. I received my latest policy quote for the next year. No hull change (100k) and the premium dropped almost 800 from last year. Down to 2400 ish. I asked about bumping the hull up to a more realistic value of 120k that would add 325.00.

I wonder if I should have asked AOPA and if it's too late to now that my N number already got shopped.

I wonder also about how to get a LOA to instruct in my plane. Maybe a call to Jared or Mark for that topic.
 
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