Landing Lights for a flying Patrol
- Thread starter GeorgeS
- Start date
Rollie
Well-known member
Probably adding landing lights in the wing tips would be the least invasive with a finished plane. I think some have made the RV-10 setup fit. Shouldn't be too difficult to run the wires either, while you have the wingtips off to mount the lights you can run a long stick or pole through the lightening holes all the way from the tip to the root to use to pull wire through.
Pbruce
Member, Patrol QB
I’m interested in this question too.
My RV9 came with wingtip lights and they were awful! They were just incandescent lamps and not LED ones. The landing lights were mounted behind and only partly outboard the nav lights, and thus probably impeded the beam somewhat. I’m not sure what the normal way of doing this is, but that was a bad setup.
Previously I had a 172 which had lights in the front of the cowl, and it was ok, but the lights lasted only about 25 hours whether they were used or not because of the vibration.
I’m flying that airplane again after the owner put LED lights in the cowl. The LEDs work AWSOME and so far they seem to be very resistant to vibration, even if used a lot.
I’m grappling with this issue for my Bearhawk Patrol. My experience suggests that wingtip lights aren’t very good, but I’d like to hear from others in case my setup was done incorrectly. I’m most reluctant to cut a hole in the wing if I can avoid it, and it does seem that the LEDs are ok in nose, although they take an awful beating up there.
I would like to tap into other people’s experiences before committing.
My RV9 came with wingtip lights and they were awful! They were just incandescent lamps and not LED ones. The landing lights were mounted behind and only partly outboard the nav lights, and thus probably impeded the beam somewhat. I’m not sure what the normal way of doing this is, but that was a bad setup.
Previously I had a 172 which had lights in the front of the cowl, and it was ok, but the lights lasted only about 25 hours whether they were used or not because of the vibration.
I’m flying that airplane again after the owner put LED lights in the cowl. The LEDs work AWSOME and so far they seem to be very resistant to vibration, even if used a lot.
I’m grappling with this issue for my Bearhawk Patrol. My experience suggests that wingtip lights aren’t very good, but I’d like to hear from others in case my setup was done incorrectly. I’m most reluctant to cut a hole in the wing if I can avoid it, and it does seem that the LEDs are ok in nose, although they take an awful beating up there.
I would like to tap into other people’s experiences before committing.
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whee
Junior Member
George has probably moved on but...
A possible solution is mounting a light at the lift strut/wing intersection similar to what Trent Palmer did on his Kitfox. It isn't a very clean solution but that may or may not matter to you.
Bob doesn't like holes being cut in the leading edge of the wing for landing lights so you may review any plans to do so with him to make sure your not going to screw something up.
I think the cleanest and best solution is wingtip mounted landing lights. They don't possibly compromise the wing, they are the most noticeable when in wing/wag mode, engine vibration doesn't kill them, and when properly designed they light up the runway really well.
A possible solution is mounting a light at the lift strut/wing intersection similar to what Trent Palmer did on his Kitfox. It isn't a very clean solution but that may or may not matter to you.
Bob doesn't like holes being cut in the leading edge of the wing for landing lights so you may review any plans to do so with him to make sure your not going to screw something up.
I think the cleanest and best solution is wingtip mounted landing lights. They don't possibly compromise the wing, they are the most noticeable when in wing/wag mode, engine vibration doesn't kill them, and when properly designed they light up the runway really well.
robcaldwell
Model B Quick Build Kit
I will be installing leading edge recognition lights (wig wag) in the furthest outboard bay using Duckworth's Blank Lampless Install Kits (bottom of the page). http://www.duckworksav.com/LELightKits.html
For the lights, BAJA makes an excellent 2,450 lumens dual LED flush mount light. https://www.amazon.com/Baja-Designs...=Baja+Designs+S2+flush,automotive,170&sr=1-12
I've seen several RV's using these BAJA's lights.
For the lights, BAJA makes an excellent 2,450 lumens dual LED flush mount light. https://www.amazon.com/Baja-Designs...=Baja+Designs+S2+flush,automotive,170&sr=1-12
I've seen several RV's using these BAJA's lights.
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whee
Junior Member
I recognize leading edge landing lights have been done numerous times, I just think it's important that anyone choosing to do so is fully informed. It has been long enough since I looked into this that I don't remember every detail so I'm hoping hoping what I do recall is enough to stir those interested to more fully investigate the effects of each option.
Wish I had time to look for it but somewhere, early Backtracks I think, Bob mentions why he doesn't like lights in the the leading edge of the wings. Basically he didn't design for them so cutting into the wing to facilitate their installation is cutting into the design margin. Maybe not a significant factor out near the tip, but for some it could be. A while back there was a similar discussion where someone mentioned that the wing that was damaged on Pat Fagan's BH failed at the landing light cutout. I'm pretty sure his light is last or second to last bay. This pretty much supplied all the empirical evidence I needed to see that what the engineer was saying was accurate. Installing lights in the last bay and installing extended wing tips means I would be cutting into design margins twice.
The Baja light Rob linked is what we are installing in our wingtips. It is possible I'll get lazy and "temporarily" install them at the lift strut/wing intersection. The light itself is quite impressive for its size. We installed one on our boat to facilitate running in the dark. Worked great till I blew the line...but I no trouble seeing the gravel bar that was in my way
Wish I had time to look for it but somewhere, early Backtracks I think, Bob mentions why he doesn't like lights in the the leading edge of the wings. Basically he didn't design for them so cutting into the wing to facilitate their installation is cutting into the design margin. Maybe not a significant factor out near the tip, but for some it could be. A while back there was a similar discussion where someone mentioned that the wing that was damaged on Pat Fagan's BH failed at the landing light cutout. I'm pretty sure his light is last or second to last bay. This pretty much supplied all the empirical evidence I needed to see that what the engineer was saying was accurate. Installing lights in the last bay and installing extended wing tips means I would be cutting into design margins twice.
The Baja light Rob linked is what we are installing in our wingtips. It is possible I'll get lazy and "temporarily" install them at the lift strut/wing intersection. The light itself is quite impressive for its size. We installed one on our boat to facilitate running in the dark. Worked great till I blew the line...but I no trouble seeing the gravel bar that was in my way
JimParker256
Bearhawk Enthusiast
Rob, the first Amazon listing you linked (for the Baja Designs "backo-up light" unit) discusses the availability of several different combinations of lights (driving, combo, and flood), but offers no ability to select which one you want. The second Amazon link you sent is for Baja Designs "flood" lights, which their own literature says only lights to about 40 feet out, and is thus not suitable for "driving" (which I would think would also mean not suitable for flying).
I suspect you really want the "Combo" (spot/flood) version. It would be a good combination for both landing (spot = 9º beam angle) and driving (flood - 42º beam angle) lights for your Bearhawk. That "flood" patterns is probably a bit on the "wide side" for a taxi light (Baja doen't seem to offer a "trapeziodal" version – usually around 20-25º beam angle – that might be better for aviation taxi light usage. But that wider angle is probably great for recognition lighting in the daytime. Here's a link to an Amazon listing for the "combo" version of the Baja Design lights - no question about what you're actually getting: Baja Designs Combo Lights
But to me, those prices are a little steep... (Or maybe I'm just a cheapskate!) One of the cool things about the Duckworth kit (thanks for that link, by the way) is that you can use a standard PAR-36 round landing light. Buy the $80 Duckworth kit (or one for each wing), add PAR-36 LED lights, and you can save a ton of money! And there are lots of PAR-36 LED options out there, including Grimes, Wheelen, and other "aviation" vendors... But PAR-36 lights are available in both LED and incandescent forms from lots of online vendors. And nowadays, the LED versions aren't much more expensive than the "cheap, disposable incandescent bulbs" (as one aviation magazine refers to them...).
One of the non-aviation vendors I like is Larsen Lights. Their PAR-36 Hi-Lo LED light is only $29, and offers both 20º spot and 40º trapezoidal beams in one physical unit. These lights produce 2830 total lumens (2200 effective lumens) with both circuits active. ("Effective" lumens is their measure of the light actually emitted in front of the lens of the light, rather than the total lumens produced by the LEDs themselves behind the lens. Most vendors don't give you both numbers, just the "total" number.) These are a LOT brighter than many of the PAR-36 offerings that are 4-5X the price...
I have a buddy who flies a lot of night flights because of his work. His airplane is a Rockwell Commander. He experimented with the Larsen Lights "PAR-36 Hi-Lo" LEDs as a direct replacement for both his landing and taxi lights. At first, it was just an "experiment" to see how they compared to the standard landing / taxi lights on his plane. He wired the "taxi" switch to the "Lo" connector, and the "landing" switch to the Hi connector, so he can control the two "sets" of LEDs separately. He absolutely loved them, and they are now a permanent fixture on his plane. He says they are super-bright, offer a great beam pattern, and he recommends them to everyone who asks about his lights. And since his Commander lands a lot faster than a Bearhawk (Commander final approach is at 85-90 kts, touchdown speed around 65-70 kts), they should work really well for the much slower Bearhawk.
I suspect you really want the "Combo" (spot/flood) version. It would be a good combination for both landing (spot = 9º beam angle) and driving (flood - 42º beam angle) lights for your Bearhawk. That "flood" patterns is probably a bit on the "wide side" for a taxi light (Baja doen't seem to offer a "trapeziodal" version – usually around 20-25º beam angle – that might be better for aviation taxi light usage. But that wider angle is probably great for recognition lighting in the daytime. Here's a link to an Amazon listing for the "combo" version of the Baja Design lights - no question about what you're actually getting: Baja Designs Combo Lights
But to me, those prices are a little steep... (Or maybe I'm just a cheapskate!) One of the cool things about the Duckworth kit (thanks for that link, by the way) is that you can use a standard PAR-36 round landing light. Buy the $80 Duckworth kit (or one for each wing), add PAR-36 LED lights, and you can save a ton of money! And there are lots of PAR-36 LED options out there, including Grimes, Wheelen, and other "aviation" vendors... But PAR-36 lights are available in both LED and incandescent forms from lots of online vendors. And nowadays, the LED versions aren't much more expensive than the "cheap, disposable incandescent bulbs" (as one aviation magazine refers to them...).
One of the non-aviation vendors I like is Larsen Lights. Their PAR-36 Hi-Lo LED light is only $29, and offers both 20º spot and 40º trapezoidal beams in one physical unit. These lights produce 2830 total lumens (2200 effective lumens) with both circuits active. ("Effective" lumens is their measure of the light actually emitted in front of the lens of the light, rather than the total lumens produced by the LEDs themselves behind the lens. Most vendors don't give you both numbers, just the "total" number.) These are a LOT brighter than many of the PAR-36 offerings that are 4-5X the price...
I have a buddy who flies a lot of night flights because of his work. His airplane is a Rockwell Commander. He experimented with the Larsen Lights "PAR-36 Hi-Lo" LEDs as a direct replacement for both his landing and taxi lights. At first, it was just an "experiment" to see how they compared to the standard landing / taxi lights on his plane. He wired the "taxi" switch to the "Lo" connector, and the "landing" switch to the Hi connector, so he can control the two "sets" of LEDs separately. He absolutely loved them, and they are now a permanent fixture on his plane. He says they are super-bright, offer a great beam pattern, and he recommends them to everyone who asks about his lights. And since his Commander lands a lot faster than a Bearhawk (Commander final approach is at 85-90 kts, touchdown speed around 65-70 kts), they should work really well for the much slower Bearhawk.
Bdflies
Between Projects
"The Baja light Rob linked is what we are installing in our wingtips. It is possible I'll get lazy and "temporarily" install them at the lift strut/wing intersection."
Whee is right that George has moved on.
When the subject came up, with George, I suggested that I'd place some of the very bright "Off Road" LED units at the strut/wing intersection as Whee suggested. I think a nice fairing could be produced and I don't think they'd look bad at all. There are so many to choose from, at very reasonable prices, one could experiment to see which performed the best. "Temporary"?
I'm not real fond of cutting a hole that big in the leading edge, either.
Bill
Whee is right that George has moved on.
When the subject came up, with George, I suggested that I'd place some of the very bright "Off Road" LED units at the strut/wing intersection as Whee suggested. I think a nice fairing could be produced and I don't think they'd look bad at all. There are so many to choose from, at very reasonable prices, one could experiment to see which performed the best. "Temporary"?
I'm not real fond of cutting a hole that big in the leading edge, either.
Bill
robcaldwell
Model B Quick Build Kit
I would be interested in seeing a wing tip installation of the Baja Designs S2 lights. I don't want to get into a engineering debate here, but I've seen many RV's, and even some Bearhawks, with leading edge light installations. I get that cutting a hole in the leading edge is probably not a good thing, but these kits seem to re-enforce the area of the hole with doublers around the hole circumference and lateral members affixed at the top and bottom of the wing surface. I would love to hear Bob's thoughts on the subject. Possibly this is subject only to the NACA 4412 (A model) and Riblett (B model) as there are many wings (certified and experimental) with leading edge lights.
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robcaldwell
Model B Quick Build Kit
I corrected the link to the proper Baja Designs S2 PRO Flush Mount lights, which is what I purchased. I just grabbed a Baja light set link and should have looked more closely. Thank you for pointing out my error.
My purpose for these lights is for recognition (wig wag). I have a "pulse" switch that will operate the recognition (outer) lights, and I have a "landing" switch for lights I will mount in the nose bowl.
I went with Baja because of the size. PAR 36 at 4 1/2" takes up a lot of real estate.
My purpose for these lights is for recognition (wig wag). I have a "pulse" switch that will operate the recognition (outer) lights, and I have a "landing" switch for lights I will mount in the nose bowl.
I went with Baja because of the size. PAR 36 at 4 1/2" takes up a lot of real estate.
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robcaldwell
Model B Quick Build Kit
I'm really glad for this discussion. I am now re-thinking the location for my out board lights. I haven't heard Bob's opinion on this, but I'm damn sure not interested in compromising the integrity of my wing. This is a good example that just because others have done it, it's ok for me.
NO!
It is not ok to follow the trail of the uninformed fool.
NO!
It is not ok to follow the trail of the uninformed fool.
From Bearhawk Tips a 1996 article from Bob.
https://bearhawk.tips/1889
and here is a second article that details a wing mount. It would be interesting to know if it addresses Bob's false spar concerns.
https://bearhawk.tips/2810
Scott
https://bearhawk.tips/1889
and here is a second article that details a wing mount. It would be interesting to know if it addresses Bob's false spar concerns.
https://bearhawk.tips/2810
Scott
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kestrel
Offering Bearhawk rides
Have you carefully read Bob's 1996 opinion? Who are you calling an uninformed fool?
robcaldwell
Model B Quick Build Kit
ME!
I was only commenting on my own ignorance to believe that just because I have seen others do something, it is ok for me to do the same without any research or basis. I previously stated that I had seen other aircraft, both certified and experimental, with leading edge lights. I assumed that this was ok for me to do as well. I was not aware of Bob's discussion on this. Reading it now....
I was only commenting on my own ignorance to believe that just because I have seen others do something, it is ok for me to do the same without any research or basis. I previously stated that I had seen other aircraft, both certified and experimental, with leading edge lights. I assumed that this was ok for me to do as well. I was not aware of Bob's discussion on this. Reading it now....
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kestrel
Offering Bearhawk rides
All of those points are valid! It is true that just because someone else has gotten away with something (so far!), doesn't mean that everyone will, or that anyone will forever. In this case, Bob does think it is safe to put lights in the outer bay of the wing. The bending moments are negligible out there and it doesn't increase the bending moments on the inner portions of the wing as larger wingtips will do. However, Bob does think that the advantages of a nose light outweigh those of wing lights. I didn't build mine, but I happen to very much like wing lights. They do a much better job of lighting the sides which is very important to me when landing an airplane with poor forward visibility at a poorly lit private strip at night. ...or occasionally operating out of an unlit strip. Wing tip lights also make better wig-wag for visibility. If I were building one now, I would very seriously consider Hoerner wing tips like Battson has built and put the landing lights in them. ...perhaps put one in the nose too! One can never have too much light when landing in dark places.
robcaldwell
Model B Quick Build Kit
We're thinking along the same lines... I will abandon the leading edge idea. I will have Hoerner wing tips with a pad built on the leading edge that will accommodate the Baja Designs LED S2 PRO Flush Mount. These will be for wig wag. I will also have the Baja LED light installed in the nose bowl.
kestrel
Offering Bearhawk rides
I happened to have my wing top off so I took some pictures. It is a very simple and effective installation. No signs of water, not heavy, not complex, just works and works well. Perhaps could have been done with flush screws?
All the extra wiring and boxes are because I have HID lights. They made sense 6 years ago when I upgraded from the halogens, but today I would put in LEDs. I bought one of these to try in our RV-4:
https://www.larsenlights.com/par-36-hi-lo
If works well, I"ll buy three more to finish out the RV-4 and replace the 2 HIDs in the Bearhawk. I might have heard about them in another thread here?
All the extra wiring and boxes are because I have HID lights. They made sense 6 years ago when I upgraded from the halogens, but today I would put in LEDs. I bought one of these to try in our RV-4:
https://www.larsenlights.com/par-36-hi-lo
If works well, I"ll buy three more to finish out the RV-4 and replace the 2 HIDs in the Bearhawk. I might have heard about them in another thread here?
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John Bickham
Flying 4 Place
Thanks for posting this. Any details on the housing/holder?
I'm trying to make the decision on location and weighing all the pro's and con's. I actually tried forming a lexan lens for the wingtips. The wife went on a trip and several us commandeered the kitchen stove, Russ Erb style. . Made several tries with less than adequate results. Any suggestions or details on wingtip lenses in actual installations?
I'm trying to make the decision on location and weighing all the pro's and con's. I actually tried forming a lexan lens for the wingtips. The wife went on a trip and several us commandeered the kitchen stove, Russ Erb style. . Made several tries with less than adequate results. Any suggestions or details on wingtip lenses in actual installations?
kestrel
Offering Bearhawk rides
For the lexan or the bulb?
The lexan is held in place with an aluminum strip at the top an bottom rear. Screws through the lexan and aluminum in to riveted nut plates. There is a strip of some sort of sealant/glue around the perimeter of the lexan, so it may be difficult to remove. Access is easy so removal isn't a concern and I see no signs of leakage.
The bulb mount is easier to see in the picture. A few strips of aluminum that offer place for hte adjustment/mounting screws. I don't know the source of the band around the bulb, but I'm sure there are numerous options.
A follow-up on the LED bulb I linked above. I'm not a fan. The beam is spread too much and doesn't penetrate for distance. It is adequate, but not what I'm looking for. I just ordered another singe/sample bulb. I'll report back after trying it:
https://www.aero-lites.com/product-page/sunsetter-ultra-g2-landing-light
Larsen lights does offer this which should be better than the one i tried:
https://www.larsenlights.com/high-output-par-36-spot-beam
kestrel
Offering Bearhawk rides
The Aero-Lites SunSetter Ultra G2 looks like a winner. In the picture, the left is the SunSetter at about 40 Watts. The right is a standard aircraft 100 Watt Halogen. I'll be order more of these to replace my other landing lights. My wife did a few night landings this evening in her RV-4 and approves.
