Vans FWF kit... Item list for an O-360 Engine?

[James]

Hi Guys,

sorry I've been a bit quiet on the forums lately - a global pandemic and staying gainfully employed has kept me away from building.

But I'm back!


I'm up to hanging the engine, and now spend a bit of time just looking blankly at the bare engine mount, unsure of how to tackle this next bit.
Having a lot of parts in my hands might help me work out how it all goes together.

I know that Vans make a FWF kit for the RV-6/7, but I only need to purchase the items compatible with a bearhawk.

Akken07 has helpfully offered to share the list of items he purchased out of the Vans Kit for his O-540 installation, but I was wondering if anyone has bought gone down this path for an O-360 Lycoming (CSU, vertical intake carburetor), and could pass on the shopping list they used?

Any information greatly appreciated,


James
Australia


PS - In another bit of exciting BH news, I've actually seen one of these things fly!
Paul took me for a ride in his machine, circling above the Blue Mountains near Sydney. Opening the window in flight - awesome!
Was also the first time I've taken off and landed on a bit of grass :-)

[Utah-Jay]

I’ll need this list too

my engine arrives this week

[Gary Wallace]

I had bits and parts from here and there so not really able to help you out there James. Want to let you know that I did get my magneto and harness from Arnold at Arnair. A beautiful mag, nice work he did!. I hope to start it up in the next few weeks, set the timing on the CPI from racetech and check the mag. I'm sure it will all be good. Very excited about my ignition choices from the single pad dual magneto. Good luck!

[James]

Good work Gary - again, please keep notes/photos of how you do things, I might need to hit you up in the future :-)

[Bcone1381]

I'm up to hanging the engine, and now spend a bit of time just looking blankly at the bare engine mount, unsure of how to tackle this next bit.
Having a lot of parts in my hands might help me work out how it all goes together.

I know that Vans make a FWF kit for the RV-6/7, but I only need to purchase the items compatible with a bearhawk.

Any information greatly appreciated,

James;

I used this article from vansairforce.com titled "Guide to Engine Hanging" to install my IO-360 to the Patrol Dynafocal mount. Make sure you install your oil pressure AN fitting onto the engine case before you install your engine onto its mount.

https://vansairforce.net/articles/IllustratedGuideToEngineHanging/enginehanging.htm

I don't have a list. I used RV7 O-360 kit contents to help be build what I needed. For example, I used their baffle kit for example. I ordered some control cables after I took measurements. I was prevented from pre-ordering everything because I needed to get my engine on the mount and mounted to the airframe for measurements to answer a host questions.

Vans does have drawings and FFW instructions available for a minor fee. The baffle kit comes with instructions. They help provide a road map putting things together.

[James]

Yeah, that's a good point Brooks - hang the engine first, and then I can get an idea of my control cable lengths.
I had just assumed that I might have to order these after-market, because the lengths wouldn't be the same as an RV, but there may be other items.

James

[schu]

Here is a list of stuff right off the top of my head:

Engine
mags
carb
Oil filter (direct attach, remote, or oil screen)
starter
alternator, alternator regulator if not internal
Oil cooler.
Prop Gov.
Exhaust system.
Exhaust muffs.
starter contactor
battery box (if not inside, recommended with lithium batteries)
Ground strap.
Engine mount.
Engine isolators.
Fuel lines.
Oil lines for cooler (and remote filter if used).
Fuel flow Sensor (if not inside)
Mixture, throttle, gov cable mount brackets (you can fab these)
Airbox with provisions for carb heat.
Heat muff.
Baffling.
Baffle sealing strips.
CHT sensors
EGT Sensors
Adel clamps (don't zip tie to the engine mount)
Scat tubing for connections from exhaust muff to airbox, or heat muff to exhaust.
Hose clamps for scat tubing.

[Bcone1381]

Thats a very complete list! Maybe an engine monitoring system. You might fabricate some exhaust heat shields. Engine Cable terminal ends...meaning female threaded rod ends with concentric bearings. Firewall penetration bushings.

[James]

Hi Schu,

I'll compare this list against the Vans FWF kit, to fill in any gaps. Handy info - thanks.

James

[James]

Hi Brooks, I noticed some exhaust heat shields in the Vans kit, $12.50 each.
Not sure whether they are the same you had in mind, but anyway:

https://store.vansaircraft.com/clamp-on-exhaust-heat-shield-ea-lv-1-heat-shield.html

[Pbruce]

Thanks guys! That’s going to be very helpful for many of us.

Regarding baffling and airbox: I’m planning to use as much Vans stuff as possible since it presents a familiar starting point, (having owned-but not built- one before). It has also been tested to a greater degree than anything I would otherwise be scratch-building. My assumption is that since I’m building a Patrol with a carbureted 0-360, I should start with RV-8 baffle and airbox kits. Can anyone comment on the validity of this assumption?

Also, how do you select engine control cables? I assume that they are built to specific length. Is this true, or can they be cut to fit? any suggestions for sourcing them?
Thanks in advance.

[Bcone1381]

There is a lot of information to study regarding cables. I think the variables also include cable terminal end design, terminal end hardware, cable length, how to secure each end of a cable's outer sleeve, control knobs.

Vans sells control cables with threaded ends at various lengths in I think 12" intervals...threaded ends verses a cable with a wire end like your lawn mower. (10-32 or 1/4-28 threads). I used there cables on the throttle and mixture. I ordered a prop control cable from a different supplier. The cables with threaded ends can be fabricated to specific lengths by McFarland or Aircraft Spruce, but that will cost you.

Cables with solid wire at the terminal end probably has a more wide selection. These can generally be trimmed and thus adjusted shorter. If the cable at the terminal end has threads to receive a female threaded rod end bearing it cannot be trimmed. Aircraft Spruce has terminal ends for the solid wire type cables. i understand that You can buy these cables in a length that is oversize and trim them to length.

If you choose a cable with the correct color and printed label it can reduce and streamline the panel real estate that labels can consume, plus they look good and professional. McFarland has a lot of different knobs. Mcfarlane's catalog is hard to use though for home builders. Spruce is easier for us homebuilders.

[James]

Hi Brooks

Yep, haven't purchased my cables yet, but I'm sharing all the information I find as I come across it:

There are various manufacturers, but the range of cables from Aircraft Spruce can cover pretty much every utilisation, cable length and termination.
It's worth getting your head around them, and then comparing other suppliers back to the ACS range.

A-750 series: vernier knob, with a button to push in to allow push/pull function, or rotate knob for fine adjust (eg mixture control).
ACS mention that the A-750 range has a small "notch" to prevent the cable sliding forward or aft, but the picture on their site isn't clear. This is what they mean:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/324863743492?hash=item4ba3635604:g:eTIAAOSwOrdhgphy

The A-1760 range is the same as above, but has a threaded sleeve and two jam nuts instead of the notch. This should work well with the holes in the carburettor control cable bracket VA-149 (see photo below).

The A-1760 VANS CUSTOM range from ACS is the same as above, but it has a shorter stroke range (2.25" per cable). It is also much more expensive from ACS.

However, if you go to the Vans webpage, go to their store section, and type CT BLUE or CT RED, etc - all the possible cable lengths come up, and much cheaper than ACS (plus they are more helpful people to deal with). My application was 48" for both mixture and throttle.

Stroke Length: I have 2.2" for the swing arm on the throttle of my carby, and 2.4" for the swing arm on the mixture, so I feel with a bit of careful tuning, I could possibly get a full range of movement out of the Vans cables, instead of the longer stroke ACS 1760 cables (3-3/8").


Jared has mentioned the A-790 series, A-810 series below - but I haven't gone down this path yet. These are solid wire core - maybe you can cut them to length, but you need a special clamp to hold the cable casing. The 1760 / 750 series have a 10/32 threaded cable end instead of a solid wire, and you can place a MW-3 rod end bearing on it, which connects directly to your carburettor arm with spacing washers.

The only reason I know all this is from the beautiful VANS drawings I purchased last week. Totally recommend them, even if you don't purchase anything else from them, between the FWF posters and their VANS store inventory, this will give you a good idea on how to proceed.

James

[jaredyates]

Cables are fresh on my mind. Here is what I used in the 4-Place:

Mixture Cable	ACS	A-790
Throttle Cable	ACS	A-810-xx
Prop Cable	ACS	A-750-30-xx

The xx is length in inches. The A-790 is a plain wire end. If you use one of these, be careful when you extract the center for cutting. There is a little ball that you can lose, as I did back on the blue plane. In my case the prop uses a 10/32 rod end and the throttle uses a 1/4x28 thread. Try and route the cables with a gentle S shape so that you can eat up some distance if you need to.

[spinningwrench]

I contacted VANS and they sent me a complete list of their firewall forward install kit for a RV-8. I am building a Patrol and will pick and choose through the list for what items I want. I am planning on the baffle kit and probably their air inlet/filter system for my carbureted engine.

[James]

Yeah Spinningwrench - I don't have the list from Vans, but I've reverse-engineered it from their website store menus.
Because I have to go through it line by line anyway to see which bits I need and which bits I don't, it's not too much more time to lay it out.

Once I'm done I'll share it for other builders

James

[Pbruce]

I will be interested in seeing what you get and also how you build it, in light of your always superb craftsmanship.

[spinningwrench]

Not sure about that but this will be my dive into fiberglass as I tackle this air inlet thing.

[Pbruce]

I’m thinking the big aft part, the “exit duct” is not needed since the Patrol cowl already has an exit designed in. Logically, then, I see myself using as much of the air inlet and the central “bowl” as is required to clear the carb with the Vans filtered airbox.

[James]

Hi Guys


Well, here's the list I've come up with


1) It's based on the RV7 CS firewall forward kit with an O-360 Lycoming
2) I need to hang the engine to determine the control lengths: Vans sell about 3 lengths of each control in the "engine controls" part of the website, so they may actually offer whatever I need.
3) I've left off the parts description for common hardware (e.g. AN470 Rivets, etc), and only put in descriptions when I wanted to know what the part actually was.

Only keeping the things I need for my own installation, it ended up about $3000 USD, which includes $925 for a Plane Power alternator, the cheapest price I've seen around so far.

4) Not sure if I need the VANS FAB, thinking you only need this for injected systems?
5) I haven't found the spherical feed-throughs for the cable - do they come from ACS?


This spreadsheet also revealed that it is cheaper to buy the complete standard kit listing for the FAB and the Baffles than it is to individually buy all the composite parts, even after you remove all the bags of standard AN hardware, stock aluminium and rivets, etc.

Jared, if it's not appropriate to put this Van's info on this forum, just remove it, and I'll happy share my info via PM.


Thanks to Akken07 for some more tips on the list, any more info people can post here much appreciated before I hit "Spend" on the Vans website


James

[jaredyates]

This is great James, I'd love to have a fleshed-out version for the Beartracks.

[James]

Well I guess I could put together a more comprehensive list once I get everything in my hands and work out what things actually work for a bearhawk Jared

[BravoGolf]

Here is my inventory sheets from my RV-7 firewall forward kit for comparison (O-360 CS.) There are some items listed as deleted. I purchased a mid-time engine that had all the accessories (alternator, CS governor, etc.) so I deleted those from the kit.


Firewall forward inventory.pdf

[James]

Hi Scott,

Thanks for the list, I thought there must have been someone who's been down this path before :-)

1) How did you get on with the Van's exhaust - does it adapt well to a bearhawk installation? Most people on this forum go for the Vetterman exhausts.

2) Is your O-360 fuel-injected? I need to know if the Vans FAB works for a 4-place with a vertical-intake carburettor.

Ok, thanks again,

James


Edit - just re-reading your post Scott - did you use this FWF kit on your patrol, or on a previous RV-7 build?

[BravoGolf]

That was the FWF inventory for my RV-7 (O-360 A-1-A.) I wish I was that far along on my Patrol.

[BravoGolf]

I just read this on the Vans website

Limitations on Sales of Raw Materials for Aircraft Construction and Crates

Due to shortages in the supply chain and extremely high order volume, in order to ensure our manufacturing and business processes are focused on getting kit and parts orders to customers, Van’s Aircraft is restricting the sale of aircraft stock/raw materials and will only sell these items to owners/builders of Van’s RV aircraft. In addition, we are no longer selling crates/crating lumber to third parties. This change will remain in place until further notice, while we ramp up and accelerate our manufacturing and shipping capacities.

Hopefully you have already ordered the FWF kit

[jaredyates]

James, the Vans FAB works great with the carburetor. If Bob builds the engine, he uses a sump with a rear intake, combined with a custom 90-degree aluminum piece that moves the carburetor back several inches. This allows for a much smaller snout sticking down below the cowl. If you were using a regular bottom-intake sump, you could still use the FAB, you'd just have more sticking down under the cowl. I was lucky enough to find someone with an otherwise messed up lower RV cowl so that I didn't have to make the scoop from scratch.

[James]

Thanks for the confirmation Jared, I'll add the FAB to the list. Still looks like a pretty reasonable price for what you get: a big push-along towards finishing your aircraft.

The next thing I need to do is find an RV builder down here in Australia who's happy to order the stuff for me, now that Vans won't sell to outsiders.

And work out some freight options :-)

James

Edit - I woke up early this morning and called Vans on their listed number - their sales rep was very helpful, and said no problem, they can sell all the FWF kit items to builders like me. What they're not selling is raw material (eg wing skins and extrusions), because there's a global shortage. Sounds really easy actually. Expect a 4 month backlog.