Instrument Panel

[DesertBearhawk]

Guys, was doing some advanced planning tonight. One thing I struggle with is the instrument panel...specifically what is going to be in the panel, and what is required....

Some background on me so you can understand where these questions are coming from. I am an A&P (30 years) and have never worked on anything smaller than a G350. Most of my experience is on airliners and glass cockpit Gulfstream aircraft. I have ZERO experience with GA aircraft. ZERO!

With that being said, I am not 100% sure what I need in my panel. I know I want to go glass and have been giving the Garmin G3x system a hard look...my issue is with radios, just not sure whats what in regards to them and what I need. I plan on ADS-B capability and I know I need the requisite transponder but beyond that i'm in a fog. Frankly I am not sure what I want and what I want to do....

SO, I am open to any and all suggestions, lectures, tutorials, diagrams, instructions, or whatever else you can think of... if its mechanical I gots me no issues but you start with the avionics and I am shaky at best.

So, let'er rip tater-chip...whats say you guys?

[mswain]

Dave,

My ideal system is the same....G3X paired with either a GNS 430W or the newer GTN 650. Both of those options have built in NAV/COM radios. Then add in a second NAV/COM like the GNC 255, Audio Panel and Transponder.

The GNS 430W/GTN650 will give you WAAS GPS source required for ADS-B out.

The biggest driver will probably be budget.

[French]

Dave, Take a look at other finished projects and see what they used. I spend a lot of time seeing what else is out there, and how the builder incorporated the "boxes". I'm building the Patrol and plan on having the panel in three sections, all of which can be removed from the front, and replaced, held by nutplates.. Then, years down the road, an owner can replace any of the sections with a newer technology, and hopefully not have to tear the entire front end of the plane off. Keep in mind how fast the technology moves. The panel will be the last pieces I buy, but in the mean time, I can finish most of the plane. Installing an autopilot forced my hand to go with Dynon. I did not want to have to go into a finished wing to install the servo, but I'm sure you could. Time will tell if this was a good or bad move. Scott F.

[N3UW]

Dave, do you want an ifr or vfr only panel?? will you fly into a lot of towered airports or talk to ATC a lot?

[N3UW]

BTW I just helped finish up the install of a G3X and I was very impressed with it in comparison to dynon. Very nice system and that is what I am planning on going with. I like the garmin 330es for transponder and adsB (today at least. less expensive options may come out over the next few years). for vfr the garmin or icom com is great. For ifr I like the Avidyne ifd 540/440 or GTN 650/750 then add a second com. if vfr I would add a simple ps engineering intercom. if IFR equipped, I would add the pS engineering audio panel of your choice. I like ten ps panels much better than the garmin panels. A the ipad makes a great nav and backup system.

[bestbearhawk1231]

Dave, I was an avionics guy on corporate jets before I went to the railroad so I understand where you are coming from. In the corporate ones the levels of redundancy is unbelievable. A few basics for planning. First, define your intended mission (IFR, VFR, day, night, cross country, local flights). Next define your budget, this will make a lot of the other decisions easier...sort of. Next, define the amount of redundancy you are willing to accept...it will be less than the corporate ones we are used to. Once this is established, you will have a lot better idea of what you can put in your panel. The AC43.13 has a section on what is the minimum accepted equipment is for IFR, VFR, day, night operation I don't have my copy available but I am sure you can find it. Once you come up with what you want in your panel but before you have pulled ANY wiring, you NEED to make your wiring drawings...I have a friend out here who didn't listen to me on that one because "I wire houses without a schematic, this isn't that much different" and to make it that much better, he is using a Dynon system...don't get me started on that, other than there is a reason why Van's gives their customers a plug and play harness for the -12. This brings me to my next point, you get what you pay for in avionics. There is a reason why you pay a bit more for Garmin vs. Dynon. Garmin gives you a basic schematic to start from, Dynon...well you have to search through a several hundred page document to find all of your connections. Garmin came from the certified world where if you don't subscribe to the industry accepted methods, you don't make it. Garmin also has decades of experience in laying out menus in a logical method which the Avionic line "stole" from their other product lines...in other words, things make sense when you are looking for stuff in the air and getting them set up on the ground. The other experimental brands do not have that. Sure, it may make sense if you are a computer geek or have played with autocad or other software packages for a living, but to the common layperson it may or may not make sense. When you are playing with them at Osh, ask yourself "will I actually remember how to get here when the shit hits the fan in the air". By now you probably think I hate Dynon...yes and no...once it is set up, it works. Dynon also had the "genious" mindset to put their magnetometer (provides magnetic info for navigation) inside the AHRS (little black box which provides the air data info and has the accelorometers used to show VSI info and wing tilt/roll info) unit which must be placed within a certain distance of the screen. On our planes, that places it right in the middle of a steel cage...not good for navigation. The Garmin places their magnetometer out on the wingtip...an industry accepted practice that has been around forever. Yes you can get interference due to the length of the wire run, but you simply run shielded twisted pairs or triples out there and properly ground the shields, problem solved.

Garmin offers remote mounted boxes for most of the functions you will want (com, nav, xpdr, audio panel, adsb...) and their certified equipment uses the same logic as the experimental when it comes to wiring and setting up the boxes. Remote mounting your boxes and controling them through your screen lends itself to a sleeker looking panel, but you are up a creek if the screen craps out. Also, you should know that ADSB requires a certified WAAS signal to be legal...something that the Dynon does not have (it has WAAS signal but it is not certified). If you go with a Garmin 430w, you have a nav, com, gps all in one box and it gives you a red line and an airplane to follow (this box revolutionized the GA avionics market when it arrived on the scene in the very late 90's). The non WAAS units are no longer supported however they can be upgraded to WAAS status by sending it in to Garmin. The 430 is old by today's standards and has limited life (parts are no longer made for it) and since ADSB requires a certified WAAS signal, the price has not dropped like it should have. It has been superseded by the GTN 650/750 series and for a couple grand more you can get a product that is unbelievable and will have a solid 20-25 year life once you factor in the parts availability issue ( manufactures make a massive buy of the parts they anticipate to die and once those parts are gone the lifespan is done, all manufactures do this). Avidyne makes a drop in slide in replacement for the 430, Garmin screwed the pooch and used a completely different rack, connector, and pinout for the 650/750. The Garmin SL-30/40 are in the same boat as the 430, they have been superseded by a new family of radios that incorporate a 2 place audio panel...Garmin also went to a completely different rack, connector, and pinout for the new series. The racks are different because the boxes are bigger, not sure why they went to a different connector, my guess would be for future expansion. Problem with that is it requires a massive upgrade and people are no longer "obligated" to stick with Garmin for financial reasons, big mistake in my opinion.

Audio panel...PS Engineering, they make the best one out there, have good customer support, and they subscribe to industry accepted practices with their products.

You need to find out your mission and budget before you can move forward. Once that is complete, make your "Dream list" and from that point you can create your "reality bites" equipment list. Once you get to that point, make your wiring drawing, make your wire bundles, terminate the "busy end" which is usually the box end, lay out the bundle in the plane, secure the bundles and tie them up, terminate the other ends, perform a good ring out, perform power checks with the BOXES OUT OF THE PLANE, then turn off power, install the boxes, and turn power on for function checks and set up.

Hope this helps,
Joe Best
Bearhawk 1231

[bestbearhawk1231]

BTW, the G3X is the experimental version of what Cessna was putting into their LSA bird...skycatcher I think it was called. According to one of my avionics classmates, they were identical on set up and operation. Another side benefit of going with a major brand that subscribes to industry standards is that there are a TON of avionics techs out there who know how to work on them if they head south and your tool kit is at your home base. Most techs I have known over the years have no problem working on experimental aircraft as long as there is a semi professional looking set of prints and name brand equipment (they do things in a similar way on certified and experimental equipment).

If I were at the stage of doing the wiring on my bird and I had the budget, I would be putting in the G3X, 650 or 750, remote mount xpdr, and a PS Engineering audio panel.

[tailwind]

I chose to use the Garmin G3X system. Steinair built the wiring harness. They pre-wire most of the system for you. They also supply you with a wiring diagram so that you can finish the interface into your electrical system. Later I decided to install an auto pilot. Again they came through with a new complete wiring diagram and harness showing how to interface the new auto pilot harness into the system. The new wires are color coded on the print so that it is easy to follow. They will build your panel if you desire. I plan to be vfr at this point. I found a Dynon 10A from another source. Steinair also wired this unit into the system for me. I have: Dynon 10A, Garmin G3X,
Garmin 330ES remote mounted with ADSB in and out, Garmin SL40 and a PMA 5000EX audio panel, I also have XM weather. I also use the garmin to monitor the engine. I plan to use an ipad mini as a backup map source. They were great people to work with and had some good suggestions to help me build a good system.

[marcusofcotton]

...If you go with a Garmin 430w, you have a nav, com, gps all in one box and it gives you a red line and an airplane to follow (this box revolutionized the GA avionics market when it arrived on the scene in the very late 90's). The non WAAS units are no longer supported however they can be upgraded to WAAS status by sending it in to Garmin. The 430 is old by today's standards and has limited life (parts are no longer made for it) and since ADSB requires a certified WAAS signal, the price has not dropped like it should have. It has been superseded by the GTN 650/750 series and for a couple grand more you can get a product that is unbelievable and will have a solid 20-25 year life once you factor in the parts availability issue...

Hey Joe,
If the very popular 430 came on the scene just 15 years ago and is no longer supported, why would we expect them to support the GTN 650/750 for 20-25 years? I'm rather old school in this, I expect longer life and support - very frustrating, but such is the reality of it. Certainly some cool stuff out there though.

As much as I like the steam gauge six pack, for lighter weight and lower cost I'll probably go with a basic glass panel - got lots o' time for the market to evolve first though. Regarding the weight, it's been a while but I recall the G1000 C182s I used to fly were 80-120 pounds heavier than same in steam.

Mark J

[bestbearhawk1231]

Mark, I would say that the WAAS version still has another 8-10 years of parts support left in it which would bring it to the 20-25 year mark. This is pure speculation since I have no idea what Garmin has for parts inventory. They have stated that they will support them for as long as they have parts to fix them. I believe that the original 430s can be upgraded to the WAAS status for continued support. With that being the case, I would guess that the original motherboard supply ran out...once again pure speculation since I have never been inside one or seen the schematic for one. The GTN was brought out a couple, three years ago therefore it would have considerable more time left for support. Once you factor in the lifetime difference, the couple grand extra is kind of a no brainer if your budget can swing it.

I always advocate flying behind what you are used to, I am sorry if this post came off as being otherwise. If you love your 6 pack and are the most comfortable flying behind them, go that route. I grew up in the video game era so I prefer the look and layout of the glass panel.

If you want and expect longer life and support, there are a pile of King KX155s out there...oh wait, they aren't making parts for them anymore either. There are getting to be fewer and fewer instrument shops out there due to the changing demand for the service. Pretty much all GA avionics made since the mid to late 90s are sent to the manufacturer for repair. The shops do not have the schematic and repair info available to them and if they did, 9 times out of 10 it would lead them back to a proprietary chipset or board that they would not be able to get anyway due to them not being an authorized repair facility or parts availability. I have a degree in Electronics Technology and a degree in Avionics and I have stopped trying to repair consumer electronics because it almost always goes back to a chip you can't get or they won't sell it to you...if you can actually get what you need, the price is high enough that you can't justify repairing it. This is the world we live in, the world of disposable electronics. One thing to remember about the service life of avionics, in 1998 when the GNS430 was introduced, we were all watching TVs with tubes that maxed out around 36", listened to music on cds (burning music onto cds was a new concept), I anything wasn't invented yet, and most internet was on a 56k modem. How long were those consumer electronics supported? Ya, they were way cheaper, but the thought of any consumer electronics being supported for 20 years is unheard of. Ok, I will get off my soap box now.

As for the extra weight in the new 182s...it is all the extra "fluff" that they put into them trying to make them luxurious. If you would strip out all of the new interiors and put in interiors from the early 1960s they would loose a lot of weight. The new ones have gained weight despite the weight loss that the avionics provide.

[marcusofcotton]

Nothing to be sorry about Joe, perhaps my choice of words suggested such, but I certainly didn't mean to. I very much appreciate (and learn from) your detailed responses! As I said, weight, and cost will likely put me into basic glass and I'll be comfortable enough with that. My current little machine has MGL multi gauges for weight, cost, and especially panel space. Not planning to install a vacuum system.

The C182s I spoke of were similar vintage and equipment corporate planes. I'd been very surprised how those weight numbers came out, guess dual G1000s and dual AHRS of the time were pretty heavy.

It's all very good, lots of choices, and more to come.
Some more winter and a day off, back out to the shop shortly!
Mark J

[DesertBearhawk]

Lots of great info guys! Thanks for taking the time....I need to digest what has been written and I am sure more questions will arise...

[jaredyates]

Dave, I'll add a couple of thoughts. Most of my flying experience is in very well-equipped "go anywhere" airplanes that are built to get the job done almost every time, as were the ones that you worked on. That operational reliability comes from the combination of several systems. You could duplicate the avionics functions and redundancy of those airplanes and still have an airplane that is going to be operationally limited, because the avionics are only one part of the package. Some of the things that you'll be missing (I'm assuming) will be a robust de/anti-icing system, two or more turbine engines, onboard radar, and the performance to climb into the flight levels to evade adverse conditions, etc.

The Bearhawk is not designed to be an airplane that will go anywhere any time, which is why it costs orders of magnitude less than those that are. As such, it seems to me to be wasteful to put a very high-dollar avionics package in a Bearhawk. I used (what I considered to be an extraordinarily-extravagant) two 100-series Dynon boxes (though if I were making the decision now I would look to the newer-generation, more integrated systems) and a GNS430. The 430 was really overkill, because other than making GPS approaches, I could have had more function for much less cost with other GPS Comm units. I don't have ADSB out capability yet, because I'm willing to bet that a more attractive option will become available before it is required. I plan to find an ADSB in option for the iPad when I get ready to start making long trips.

I would suggest that the most cost-effective option when it comes to a particular piece of avionics is to leave it out. If you can't exercise option one, then the second-best option is to buy the mounting trays or racks right before you really are stuck with needing them, then do all of your wiring, covering, painting, etc. When you get ready to put your wings on for the last time, buy the actual boxes. If you can't get the boxes without the racks, don't worry- you can sell the new racks to another builder.

Also, don't be intimidated about doing your own wiring if it is something that you are interested in doing. I did all of my own and enjoyed the process. You'll find all sorts of posts from builders who were scared into believing that tefzel wire was impossible to strip and that their only option was to pay someone else to make their harnesses. If you wouldn't enjoy the wiring process, then there is nothing wrong with paying someone else to do it, but don't feel like you have to.

I purchased all of my avionics second-hand at considerable discounts. Half were new but uninstalled, and half were used with some flight time. It takes a while to find good deals, but I had the time between installing the racks and flying the plane, which in my case, took about 2.5 years. The first step is definitely to define your mission. If you are planning to stay on the ground when the weather is bad and you can withstand the marketing pressure, you can save thousands of dollars by using a more basic system. I'm planning on lots of "load the family up" cross-country flying with some occasional IMC, so that's why I was willing to have such an expensive setup. In another few years I'll be able to say if it was worth it or not.

[Battson]

Dynon also had the "genious" mindset to put their magnetometer (provides magnetic info for navigation) inside the AHRS (little black box which provides the air data info and has the accelorometers used to show VSI info and wing tilt/roll info) unit which must be placed within a certain distance of the screen. On our planes, that places it right in the middle of a steel cage...not good for navigation.

My Dynon magnetic compass is inside my wingtip, seperate from the AHRS. I'm not sure what problem you're describing, but I think there's some choice in the matter...

[Tom W]

I made my instrument panel cutouts in 2005. Medical, kids in college, etc..... 2013 I realized how much changed. Now it is just three open bays (left, middle, right). Middle is for the radio stack. This way I can just pull one section and update as needed.

Tom