Insurance

[Chris In Milwaukee]

Well, Jared is a CFI and has a Bearhawk training LODA. Perhaps he can be of assistance?

[jaredyates]

I don't have 25 in type in the Patrol, more like 12 or so.

[Chris In Milwaukee]

:-( Well dangit.

[whee]

Since this morning we have managed to get another quote from the broker we used during the building process. We called 3 weeks ago, not sure what took so long. Squeaky wheel gets the grease I guess. They quoted $1900 ($100 thousand hull and normal liability) with 1 hr. solo and 2 hrs duel and the person doing the dual would have to get the approval of the insurer, who I think was AIG. Moving onto EAA to see what first flight coverage they can do for us before the check is in the mail.

I'm curious who this brokers is; that's a great quote, IMO. Brokers can have some effect on premiums; I know this from personal experience.

Insurance is tough in these situations and it can be very frustrating. I got lucky and had a friend take me up in his BH and show me a few things. Then I made friends with another guy who let me fly the phase 1 on his airplane because he couldn't. The insurance on my airplane covered me in ANY airplane I was flying up to 150% of my insured value. No checkout requirements or anything. I got lucky again and didn't wreck that airplane as I taught myself how to fly it.

I suppose it is worth noting that Avemco was the only company that would insure me and my previous airplane when I had 0 TT. They were also really lax with their CFI requirements, needed to be current in the make/model. I left them after the first year because I was then insurable by other companies which were less expensive.

[Bdflies]

Wow! Your planes are finished and inspected. You're holding airworthiness certificates. After years of blood, sweat and (maybe) a few tears, the holdup is insurance!! I really like the part about requiring the CFI to have 25 hrs in make and model. Good luck with that one!
Note to self: Start working on insurance very soon...

Good Luck!

Bill

[Bcone1381]

So, If you received a 2 hour CFI checkout in a friends Patrol, and soloed your friends Patrol for an hour, you would be insured to fly your brand spanking new, just finished, never flown Patrol during the initial test flight.

[Flygirl1]

I think you are correct. Still not sure how much Patrol time the CFI needs in make and model, but under the impression he would need some. D.

[Flygirl1]

The final results of our insurance quest - 0 for 0. We will fly without it for a few hrs. AND BE VERY CAREFUL DOING IT!!! The best quote we have is from AIRCRAFT & MARINE ASSURANCE AGENCY, Out of Vancouver Wa.. (AIG was quoted ) 1-800-466-4944 If interested speak with Denae. 1 million liability, 100 K per seat and $100 thousand hull. With all kinds of TW time we saw prices between $1974 and $2118. With 2 hours of dual and 1 hour of solo. CFI-needed experience in Make and model, but i'm not sure at this point how much time. We have decided to go without until we have a few hours and then we'll start the process over again. D.

[Bdflies]

People have different views and opinions about insurance. I've got a friend (with significant means) who insures everything he owns and wouldn't consider otherwise, even though he could well afford the loss. Another friend abhors insurance and has none on any of his many "toys".
Personally, I have never insured hull value of a plane. Liability insurance is pretty easy and inexpensive. If I ding it, I'll fix it. My $0.02

Congratulations again on your first flight!

Bill

[Chris In Milwaukee]

Insurance is always an exciting topic. It's a very sensitive one in the Maule circle, which is a similar class of aircraft to the Bearhawk. A Maule owner/pilot in the group is also an insurance agent. He has a great series of videos related to aircraft insurance.

http://maulepilots.org/forums/viewtopic.php?t=2269&highlight=insurance

Here is one he did that discusses how rates are determined.

Interesting stuff!

[jaredyates]

Part of what stinks about the aviation insurance business is that once a broker quotes an underwriter, the underwriter will not let another broker provide a quote. So choose carefully before you ask for that first quote. My first flight coverage was through Falcon underwritten by AIG. I had 50 tailwheel and lots of other time, and it was north of $3000. This year it was just over $2000 with 200 in type and 250 tailwheel. It seems like I'm on a different underwriter each year, having only used Falcon/AIG for the first year. I guess that means I have a good broker who is working hard to shop around for me. We do have the minor complication of wanting to have the option to do some commercial coverage for transition training, but we always get quotes with and without that option. If it was going to cost much more, I'd be fine with pausing the training for a year.

[Charles King]

Something to think about, I lost my Skyhawk and hangar back in 2008 to Hurricane Ike. The plane was insured with AIG they where prompted to come out and I had a check for the full amount within a few weeks , great . When I ask the adjuster about buying it back he said take the money and buy anther plane but if I was really interested to go to their Web site and bid. A local FBO and A/P that buys and rebuilds plane ask me about it and I told him it know belongs to AIG he said forget it, that their the only Insurance that he knew of that would not sell the plane on site. So if you wont your baby back to rebuild would you have to bid against the world ?

[Bcone1381]

I watched the Video Chris posted in post #22. I wondered if a little organization we could bring down insurance rates for our fleet. In the video he said a small fleet has higher insurance rates. Then he talked about the "Loss Ratio" or dollars insurance companies pay out over dollars they take in. Then he talked about Parts Availability.

Could someone do something to lower our fleets Loss Ratio? Are you a CFI? An insurance company would love it if our fleet developed a training program in conjunction with the their industry that addressed the highly probable losses. We lower the loss probability, and hopefully lower our rates. The Mitsubishi MU-2 community did this 20 years ago and it made a big difference.

Regarding parts availability. Factory New Bearhawk Parts are readily available. Its even a benefit to pay out a loss for a Bearhawk, because Mark Goldberg can get us parts....new parts...any new major airframe part for a lower price than any certificated aircraft flying today. Individual ribs for peanuts, a $150 for a wing tip, a lift strut for $300, the entire horizontal stab for $1000, $9000 for a whole new wing.

I wonder if we have high insurance cost because the Bearhawk is comparable to a Maul which has needed a larger rudder since 1941, and new wing on a Maul may be something like $18,000, a lift strut is $2400, a wing tip is $1800.

[Sebastian]

This is an interesting discussion. I nowhere close to needing insurance and being a low time pilot it is a concern. In reading Bcone's post it brought the question to mind,"Is the Bearhawk community large enough to form a COOP to buy insurance as a group?" Hopefully this would help all of us on rates.

[interstate al]

When I purchased my Interstate in 2013 I had zero tail wheel time and hadn't flown for 20 years. I insured through Global Aerospace for $1957 the first year. The only requirement was 15 hours in make and model with a CFI. I hired a CFI, who also owned a Interstate, to give me some dual and then fly with me from OR to NE. Total time logged was a bit over 15 hours. The following year I priced it through AOPA and it dropped to $1323 for the same coverage. This year, with around 160 hours tw time, it is $1326. Not much of an increase in 3 years! AOPA may be worth a look?

[Flygirl1]

Now that we have 18 hrs. we have a new quote---This is $100K hull for the Patrol, 1M/!00K liability--EAA: $3088. A company called Acceleration: $2085 w/$500 deductible in motion and $0 not in motion. AIG: $2118 w/$0 deductible in and not in motion. She said this would most likely drop after 50 hrs. but if we bought the policy today, it would stay that price for a yr, no matter how many hrs we had. She also said that liability portion of that was around $500 and everything else was hull. I guess if you HAD to have it, a person could lower the hull and save some $, if you like to gamble. From previous notes AIG required 2 hours dual and 1 hr. solo--for the same price as today. Also form reading my first posts none of these quotes are adding up. Looks like a huge swing depending on what day you call. Maybe it's Friday and things are more expensive on Friday. D.

[Chris In Milwaukee]

If you don't mind me name dropping, and you haven't yet committed, you might give my agent a call. She found an underwriter that would cover me in the Maule for $1500 when nobody else would touch me for less than $3500-5000!

Stephanie Dennis
Light Aircraft Account Executive
Gallagher Aviation
877-913-6247
(M-F 8:30 – 5:00 EST)
Referrals are always appreciated!!

Formerly NationAir Aviation Insurance

Arthur J. Gallagher Risk Management Services, Inc.
595 Bell Ave / Spirit of St. Louis Airport /
Chesterfield, MO 63005

Direct: 877-913-6247 I Fax: 636-532-3646
www.ajg.com/lightaircraft / | www.ajg.com

[Flygirl1]

If it saves me $$, name drop to your hearts content. ;-)

[Bdflies]

I have secured $1 mil liability only. $400 for phase 1 and $550/yr afterwards. I made a few calls, trying to get an 'open pilot ' policy, but no dice.
On the subject of lowering premiums by reducing hull value, I'll pass along something that I was told, a while back; When the damage rises to 60% of the insured value, the plane is totalled. You get your check and the company owns the plane, which they sell. 60% of $100,000 value is a significant amount of damage. If that same plane is insured for $60,000 (to reduce premiums), a bad ground loop just might get the plane declared a total loss. You get the (smaller) check and the company gets the same (less damaged) plane... Bottom line is not to reduce the hull coverage to reduce premiums. If you're going to insure the hull value, keep the value real.

Bill

[Flygirl1]

Yea, we had that conversation. Is it worth buying back from the insurance company?, you'd probably come out on the wrong end of that deal. When I gamble I look for the penny and nickel machines, (if they even have those anymore), so full coverage it is. I believe the only way to maybe save any $$ is to insure during those months you fly the most. I've added for a trip to OSH before and taken it back off that winter.D.