3rd/4th FLIGHTS

[Flygirl1]

Yesterday and Today we adjusted the oil pressure relief valve in my plane, ( Lady DY-non knows what she's talking about), cleaned the oil off the belly of Dennis' plane and fixed any oil leak problems, took mine back up to adjust for a govenor overspeed issue, which turns out to have corrected itself. A note here to say WOW -- I slowly pushed the throttle to wide open while in an 90 mph climb and headed for the hills. All I can think to say is: HOMESICK ANGEL!!!

Also we are looking at how to approach this heavy wing. We understand that washers under the "top" of the hinges on the heavy aileron is the thing to do and are willing to try that, but taking the wing tip off to get at that outboard hinge is a bit of an issue for us because we riveted that on instead of screws. There are 55 rivets in the wingtip total and to have put nut plates in that would be another 110 holes to drill and de-bur and that's just one wing. So we both thought drilling the rivets out, if and when the time came wouldn't be a problem, just didn't expect it to be so soon. I suggested we drill a hole in the area between top and bottom of the hinge in the spar should be an OK thing to do as long as it wasn't the grand canyon of a hole??

Dennis' third flight turned up some numbers you can use for your reading pleasure: At 7000 ft and 24/24 Dynon reported 155MPH TAS. At 5000 ft 23/23--148MPH TAS. Still not rigged at this point, so some improvement expected. D-n-D

[nuggets]

http://www.cherryaerospace.com/product/rnp could these be of any use ??, using the original rivet holes on the wing tips ???

[Flygirl1]

Can't say I've seen those before. Have you used them? Thanks for sharing the link. I believe we would need something that would be flush under the skin of the wing tip, so not sure if these would work for this area. But you've given me a thought towards rivnuts. I'm still hoping to put a hole in the spar. It's not like it would be the only hole. There's a hole between every rib. Besides every hole we drill is a lightening hole, unless I fill it with a rivet. ☺️

[nuggets]

Not used them (yet) ,just came up while i was searching rivets ?? not sure how they finish !! might be worth checking them out .

[JimParker256]

My A&P/IA would shoot me for even thinking about RivNuts. They have a tendency to lose their grip on the sheet metal, and spin freely behind the sheet metal. Then you have a real nightmare on your hands...

My certified Rockwell Commander 114 (and Grumman Traveler, for that matter) both used Tinnerman nut clips (like this: http://catalog.monroeaerospace.com/i...FdW4wAodPtYGPg) with low-profile head stainless screws to hold the wingtips in place. They are very thin, and worked pretty well, even on an airplane that was cruising at up to 165 knots...

[Flygirl1]

Please DO NOT show him this post!! ;-) I've used them in a couple of places for some inspection covers. But your right, they could possibly spin in the hole if they un-grip. Are you still flying those airplanes?? I kept the Citrabria for as long as I could, but once it was sold there was huge push to get this Patrol in the air. D.

[JimParker256]

No, I sold the Grumman when I bought the Commander, and sold the Commander when I bought the Patrol kit and Citabria ('65 7ECA with O-200 power). I got the Citabria for the tailwheel endorsement, and to build some tailwheel time while building the Patrol. Having fun flying and building, but definitely feel the need for more power and useful load... I can't wait to fly the Patrol!

[Mark Goldberg]

Donna, I think you are mistaken that you need to take the wingtip off to place washers under the aileron attach weldment. I have done this on a couple planes and never removed the wingtip. The aileron - yes. But never a wingtip. Mark

[Flygirl1]

Just talked with Bob B. and got the go ahead to drill out a 2 or 3 in. hole to get a wrench on the back side of the bolt. Good thing too--all those rivets are painted to match the wing. Donna

[Collin Campbell]

One trick I used to avoid having to completely remove the aileron bolts to get the washers underneath. I slotted the AN970 washers so as to be able to just loosen the bolts enough to slide the washers under the mounts.

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[DRLPatrol]

Mark beat me to it. I was thinking just remove the aileron and reach through the spar lighting holes but I forgot about the cove skin. Collin or Mark, how do you get a wrench to the bolt head on the front of the spar?

Doug

[DRLPatrol]

Donna, I am not following you. I have lightning holes in the spar that I could reach though but the cove skin will be in the way, right. What am I missing.

Doug

[DRLPatrol]

OK, I think I have got it. I went back and looked at some pics I shot of your wings when they were still on the bench. You are talking about drilling this 2" hole right between the upper and lower bolts for the aileron hinge which would be in the gap of the cove skin.

I would definitely adjust the flaps first. That will make a big change and is a lot easier.

[Flygirl1]

That's correct. We placed the washers in 240bp and it did a little, but bot enough. Today we adjusted both planes to have a slightly lower flap but can't test the theory due to WX and according to the WX guy, it may be several days. Looks like we're in for another ice storm 🙁 Donna

[geraldmorrissey]

Jim, I use rivnuts all the time and love them. I plan to use them on my Patrol. They are used on my Cessna to hold fairings on. If you have one that spins its a royal pain to remove especially if you can't get to the backside (which is why you generally use them). But once you have it out it can be replace with a keyed rivnut. It has a very small positive rectangular key on the O.D. of the fay surface that prevents the replacement rivnut from ever spinning. It takes about 5 minutes to install one, including filing in the key notch.
Cheers
Gerry
Patrol #30 wings

[Flygirl1]

We used both the keyed and un keyed. The keyed have a little thicker edge and the un keyed worked better in an area that needed to be flatter. All of our rivnuts have been used for inspection covers only, flap and aileron covers and side of fuselage at the tail. They work great, so far. D.

[JimParker256]

Yep, both the keyed and un-keyed types work great, right up until they lose their grip and don't work any more. And it happens – even with the "keyed" ones. Ask any A&P how they feel about RivNuts... Over-torquing may accelerate the problem, but all of us know someone whose idea of "torque" is "tight plus a little bit more"...

When they eventually do lose their grip, they become a major PITA. I watched my A&P/IA buddy and one of his crew working on a "blind" RivNut that was spinning in place. It cost an hour of wall clock time (2 hours of shop time with 2 guys working on it) to get it out. He was cussing up a storm the whole time.

The only time I've seen him more frustrated was when he was doing an annual on an airplane (I think it was a Mooney, but I can't remember for sure), and needed to access an autopilot servo. After consulting the maintenance manual, they had to call the factory for confirmation (and got it) that they needed to remove part of the wing skin to gain access to that servo. Whoever the heck designed that was not thinking about maintaining it down the road, were they?

[fairchild]

Just thinking about taking the wing tips off Cessnas during annuals and other recurring issues. Seems like removable wing tips might come
in very handy for doing internal corrosion treatments via the ling fishing pole-like spray wand..... , pulling wires for extra strobes-
On the flip side though- if we use chromate primer on every part building the wings there could never be a need for anti-corrosion products --- unless it was a seaplane or used on the coast ?
I would think - in general- having them come off using riveted on flush blind nuts would be easy if done at the appropriate stage in building. same with
the inspection covers. Hope to be building in the near future and just thinking ahead......

[Flygirl1]

Absolutely, a good idea to have them removable. I think it must have been soon after we had done something like the fuel tank cover. At least "I" was so tired of drilling, clechoing, riveting, de-burring, that we thought pop rivets was the way to go. Right now I can't imagine having to take the wing tip off any time soon. The tail lights, the strobes, nav and landing lights are all accessible without having to take it off. The rivets we used came pre primed and took paint really well.

[Rollie]

I had heard a few years back that a heavy wing can be addressed by adjusting the flying wires on the stabilizers. I didn't understand how that might be, and I should have followed up on it at the time. Has anyone else ever heard of such a thing? On my Aztec I solved that problem by adjusting the flap at the rod end bearing to put the flap on the heavy wing down just so slightly. I don't think thats an option here though with the way the flaps are cable actuated. I guess we could make a difference when the flaps are deployed, but when they are up are the cables slack or is there still tension on them? If so you could adjust either the rod end bearing at the flap, or the turnbuckles to even things out.

[Flygirl1]

241 put the washers under the top hinge bracket and adjusted the flap like you said at the rod end bearing down just a bit and it seems to have helped, but more is needed somewhere. A look at the tail section is a good idea. I suppose if one side was off from the other that would have some effect on things. On mine we adjusted the flap only and it has not appeared to make any difference at all. We have added a stiffer rudder peddle return spring, but the WX has not cooperated for me to test it. Hopefully today is looking good if we can get rid of the fog. D.

[jaredyates]

I found that adjusting the flap was not productive, mostly due to the way the flap flexes at higher speeds. If it was correct for 80 knots, then it would be too much at 100, etc. Also, it took so much deflection to get it right. The flap trailing edge would be deflected over an inch on the ground to get the same amount of correction as one washer under the aileron hinge. You can also consider adding a washer to the other side of the other aileron. For example, if you have a washer on the top of the right wing, add one to the bottom of the left wing. I know the feeling about not wanting to go to the trouble of installing nutplates for the wingtip, but you'll probably want to add that to your to-do list sooner or later. I've had mine off regularly for various maintenance and inspections.

[Flygirl1]

Agree on the sooner or later for nut plates. To all of you who have the opportunity now, now is a good time, not later. It appears after a flight yesterday that the "right roll" is OK, but the skid ball is out, so maybe some rudder trim is in order. We've placed a stronger return spring on the left peddle, but again, not nearly enough to correct the issue. D.