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  • IFR Patrol

    First let me explain a few things about my question. I purchased Bearhawk Patrol plans after I flew a Piper Super Cruiser for float plane training and a Super Cub for tail wheel training. I really enjoyed flying both planes and when the Patrol became available as plans built I ordered a set. Fast forward a few years and I have not started work on my plane but I did complete my instrument rating.
    This year I was fortunate enough to be able to attend Oshkosh and got to see both the 4 place Bearhawk and the Patrol side by side. One thing that I noticed was how small the instrument panel was in the Patrol.
    I am trying to get an idea of what a possible panel layout might be. I was thinking about using the Aspen Evolution avionics but I saw Dynon Skyveiw and Garmin G3X Touch have engine monitoring.
    So my question is this, has anyone had any experience with any of these systems and do you think they could fit into the Patrol instrument panel with a little room for backup instruments?

  • #2
    Another thing I would like to mention is that I have looked at the IFR Pannels in Aviat Huskies and I kind of like the look of those.
    My instrument flights would be LVP/DME ARC/ ILS/ RNAV approaches in reduced visibility conditions like smoke or rain. Any time the freezing level is below 10,000 feet I just don't go ifr. I live in Western Montana where the approaches and MEA altitudes are all really high.

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    • #3
      As of now, the Skyview GPS is not considered a legal position source for flying IFR approaches. Lots of folks add something like a Garmin 430 or 650. I wonder if that will change... they seem to be travelling down a road of enhancing the system's capabilities with regard to legalities. Of course if you are wanting to do an ILS, you'd need to have the VHF receiver like the Garmin for that also. I'm running the Skyview and 430, and the 430 is connected to the Skyview so that the Skyview can present the navigation indications from the 430. So you might do some layout testing with paper versions on the panel to see if you can fit a screen of your liking and a Garmin navigator. Dynon has a nice printable size guide that shows the screens in full size.

      Having said all of that, it's fun to dream, but I wouldn't get serious at all about avionics until the very last possible moment. For example, when your wings are done and in the rack, and your fuselage is ready for blast and paint in preparation for covering. At that point, it will be nice to have some idea of what you'll be using so that you can weld on any mounting tabs that may be required, for remote components and antennas. For the Skyview I mounted an aluminum sheet behind the panel, and attached most of the little boxes to that. Mine is installed with adel clamps, with the boot cowl in place. After the fuselage tubes are painted but before covering, it is a good time to do some of the wiring, especially anything that needs to run to the back of the airplane. It is handy to do most of the panel wiring before installing the boot cowl for the last time, but I'd recommend waiting until you are just about ready to fly before purchasing the actual boxes. The pace of change is so fast that there are going to be new options available, and if you don't want the new options, you'll be able to get a better deal on the old stuff. The worst case is spending all of that money early on just to have the avionics sitting in boxes on the shelf, watching their value decline.

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      • #4
        As Jared stated, the FAA requires a "certified" GPS receiver for IFR flight, but almost all of them will integrate nicely with Garmin's G3X-series, Dynon, GRT, and MGL systems, including their respective autopilots that are basically "free" once you pay for the servos... The capabilities are in many cases better than what you can achieve with certified "add-on" systems like Aspen, Garmin G500, etc.

        The 7" versions of ANY of these experimental EFIS systems will fit easily in the center of the Patrol panel, or even offset to the side a good bit, leaving plenty of room for a Garmin 430/530, Garmin 650/750, or Avidyne 440/540 mounted off to the other side. And even the 7" EFIS displays can split their screen displays to show the engine monitor info along one side (or bottom) while the PFD and/or MFD remain displayed in a second window. Some will show all three screens at the same time (GRT, in particular seems to do this well).

        I've seen at least one Patrol panel here on the Forum with a 10" Garmin G3X mounted dead-center, but after printing out the full-size Garmin template, and checking that it scaled correctly, it does NOT look like it will fit on the "standard" panel supplied with my QB Patrol kit. I guess it could be installed with the top edge sticking out 3/4" to 1" above the top of the panel, but I don't like that idea very much. Likewise, one could fabricate a new panel that is slightly taller in the center (even 1" taller would allow most of the 10" EFIS displays to fit), but I'm not willing to spend the time to do that... I find the 7" panels (perhaps even dual panels for IFR redundancy) to be perfectly acceptable to me. That is - IF I elect to equip for IFR. Right now, I'm not planning to do that, but am laying out my panel so I COULD do it without major disruptions, if I change my mind later on...

        One thing to consider when choosing an EFIS panel for IFR: how will you keep the 24-month IFR certification of your airspeed, altimeter, and transponder updated? I say that because when I spoke to the guy who does about 95% of the IFR certifications around here, he flat-out stated that he would NOT work on some of the experimental EFIS systems. He would test them, but if they failed the tests, he could not (or would not) even try to "fix" them, because of the lack of documentation for doing such work, which is required for him to retain his FAA license to do this work. So if you definitely plan to make your Patrol IFR, check with whoever does your pitot/static/transponder checks to see if they can/will work on the EFIS system you have in mind.
        Jim Parker
        Farmersville, TX (NE of Dallas)
        RANS S-6ES (E-LSA) with Rotax 912ULS (100 HP)

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        • #5
          Good point on asking the shop. My local shop is a good one and I have passed 3 tests so far, one on the skyview.

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          • #6
            I picked up a software program this year at OSH that is designed to help plan the instrument panel of my Patrol. It says that two Dynon Skyview 7" displays will fit side by side, or a single 10" display. It looks like two 7" Garmin G3X displays would also fit side by side.

            Regarding GPS, the IFR certified Garmin 600 series GPS was the most inexpensive new equipment that I found that could fulfill the FAA's mandates for IMC flight.

            To keep the panel of the Patrol clean, a very good option recommended by some highly experienced aviation electrical engineers is the use of remote fuse blocks (Like used in automotive) instead of panel mounted circuit breakers. The remote fuse blocks save a lot of money, weight, and are simpler to install. Some RV builders also install an electronic power distribution and circuit protection device from Vertical Power that also removes the necessity of panel mounted circuit breakers.

            More space can be conserved with remote mounted throttle, and mixture control, remote tuned radios, or the small 2 1/4" Trig VHF Comm and Transponder.

            Think the panel out from the beginning and IFR should be no problem. The Professional Instrument Panel Builders will also help you make it work if that is an option for you.
            Brooks Cone
            Southeast Michigan
            Patrol #303, Kit build

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            • #7
              Brooks, which software did you pick up? I've been looking at something that would work on a Mac, but haven't found anything "native". I have a PC-emulator, but it's on my small-screen Mac Pro laptop, so not nearly as usable...
              Jim Parker
              Farmersville, TX (NE of Dallas)
              RANS S-6ES (E-LSA) with Rotax 912ULS (100 HP)

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              • #8
                An IFR capable Patrol shouldn't be a problem. I mounted the 10" G3X screen in the middle, with a G5 and autopilot panel on the left. I didn't install an IFR navigator, so I put all the breakers on the right. Brooks' suggestion of remoting or just relocating the breakers would free up a bunch of space. See the pic attached. My panel was framed when I got the project, but I'm pretty sure it's a standard configuration. The cross bar is at the bottom and the top fairs into the boot cowl. The Huskies do have a nice panel. The Husky I flew most recently had a G600 / 430w panel. If you look closely at the IFR Huskies, you'll note that they're extended upward a bit, to accommodate more stuff. This could easily be done to the Patrol panel. Also, it's worth noting that the Patrol is 3" wider than a Husky. While it might not seem like a lot, that 3" is a lot of panel real estate! Basically, replicating a Husky panel in a Patrol would be real easy.
                You really don't need to get too wrapped up in avionics just yet. I bought my avionics at Oshkosh '16. That market is evolving so rapidly, we can just barely imagine what'll be available when you're ready to install yours!

                Bill
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              • #9
                Regarding fit, I can verify that a 10 inch Dynon fits the Patrol panel fine. When we were planning we found that the 10 inch G3X would not fit which helped us decide. We do not have a "certified" GPS navigator but I am confident one would fit beside the Dynon if desired. We have the GPS 2020 and it is very accurate (shows the runway on synthetic vision as we taxi onto it). The ledge at the lower edge of the panel is nice because it gives a place to anchor your hand when working buttons or touch functions during turbulence. IMHO the Dynon system is wonderful. Gives so much information and intuitive situational awareness. I'm sure the others a great too...

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                • Bdflies
                  Bdflies commented
                  Editing a comment
                  Well now I'm really curious to find out how mine isn't standard... I'm gonna pull out the plans!

                  Bill

              • #10
                Here is a link to the instrument Panel Software.
                Panel Planner is your best solution for designing and fabricating whole instrument panels for large twin to experimental aircraft. It is made for the aircraft owner, homebuilder, repair/refit station, flight department, designer, or manufacturer. While Panel Planner is a stand-alone program for designing the instrument panel, a knowledge of CAD is required to fabricate the panel itself”“After you have designed your panel if you are unfamiliar with CAD, please call us for recommendations of companies that can do this for you.” Design and build instrument panels in record time. Panel Planner gives you the power to design and build instrument panels in record time. Simply drag full-color, photo-realistic instruments, avionics, and cockpit controls into place on an aircraft panel template.Panel Planner tracks total cost, total weight, and peak current generates an equipment list, and even prints actual-size hole-cutting templates and color mock-ups with your desktop printer or plotter.


                I am not 100% sold on it yet, but we will see. It has the Patrol Panel in its database, but not the four place or LSA. Its a bit pricey. I have a MacBook Air and it works fine, but I kind of feel like I am playing with a very old Windows program when I use it. Not that its slow, just old school. I start with a blank panel, then drag and drop avionics, instruments, switches, from the programs data base. Numerous things I want in my panel are not in the programs data base, but I figured out how to add a piece to the data base. The program has me input the shape and size of the face of the unit, the size of the cutout, its weight, its cost, its amperage draw, and stuff like that. I add a face to it from a .jpg file to make it look like the instrument I built. When I am done if I choose, the program sends the info back to the home office, and I think they will review it, make corrections, and add to the database when its updated. I think a lot of people would not be satisfied with the program because of its clunkiness. Maybe I was a sucker at OSH. BTW, 30 day free trial.

                When I make my finalize my panel, I can generate a file that can cut it out of plastic, test that everything is as I like, then have the metal panel cut.

                So, its handier than cardboard cut outs.

                Lastly, my panel blank from the QB kit is sitting on my desk next to me. The bottom of the instrument panel will attach to the cross bar. A 2" horizontal shelf is provided, then the vertical panel extends up from the shelf. At the center line of the panel I have 8" of height. I have a 7" high panel surface in the middle 16" of the 32 inch wide panel. I think its over 30" because I have not trimmed it down yet.
                Last edited by Bcone1381; 08-12-2017, 08:24 PM.
                Brooks Cone
                Southeast Michigan
                Patrol #303, Kit build

                Comment


                • #11
                  I went to Osh Kosh a couple years ago and took a paper template that I cut out of the panel to give an idea of the panel size to a few avionics shops. I spent quite a bit of time at all the avionics tents and after awhile I had it narrowed down to either Garmin or Dynon. I think I actually like the Dynon screens better. The avionics shop that I ended up going with convinced me to go with Garmin, siting that everything in the G3X is made from the same parts as their certified stuff, whereas the Dynon isn't certified at all. They also said that even though the Dynon's initial price is less, that once you buy all the add ons, the price difference between the two would be insignificant. I really don't know if they just prefer to work with Garmin, or have a better mark up on it, or actually think its better. I think they are probably both good.

                  As you can see, the two 7" G3X's and the GTN 625 pretty much fill the panel. I made a radio rack to hold the remote transponder, two radios, ADS-B, engine monitor, etc. I think it is going to work out well, radios, transponder and autopilot are controlled through the touch screens, and I got it with AHARS on each G3X, so either can be the PFD and a back-up battery. That gives me redundancy on flight instruments and on power.
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                  Rollie VanDorn
                  Findlay, OH
                  Patrol Quick Build

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                  • #12
                    I have Skyview in my RV-10 and will put it in my Bravo - very happy.... The GPS2020 is the updated GPS to satisfy ADSB - does this not count as a certified source?

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                    • #13
                      Originally posted by PaulSA View Post
                      I have Skyview in my RV-10 and will put it in my Bravo - very happy.... The GPS2020 is the updated GPS to satisfy ADSB - does this not count as a certified source?
                      Nope. The TSO for certifying IFR GPS navigators is far more complex and explicit than the one for the GPS source for ADS-B OUT. But even so, the Dynon GPS-2020 is NOT TSO'ed at all. Doesn't need to be. Dynon just has to show that it achieves the same performance as a TSO'ed unit, since it is going into an experimental aircraft.
                      Jim Parker
                      Farmersville, TX (NE of Dallas)
                      RANS S-6ES (E-LSA) with Rotax 912ULS (100 HP)

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                      • #14
                        In the interest of not leading anyone astray, I need to state that my instrument panel is NOT stock. I didn't know... My panel is 9" tall in the center. If Brooks' quick build panel is 8" tall, then I now understand the suggestion that the 10" G3X touch won't fit. I printed the full scale template, from the Garmin site and taped it to my panel. It's tight, but it fits fine. If it were an inch shorter, it wouldn't work. Shame. It's an incredible system. I need to send Dick Smith (original builder, from whom I bought my project) a Thank You note! Thanks to Brooks also. Looking at the plans I have, I can't see any difference.

                        Bill

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                        • #15
                          IFR GPS...I think an IFR certified GPS has a lot more to it than just accuracy. For example, after the user chooses an approach from the GPS's menu of an IFR certified GPS, it builds all of the waypoints of the approach and the missed approach procedure. This adds a large burden for the manufacturer to develop and keep updated.
                          Last edited by Bcone1381; 08-13-2017, 08:42 PM.
                          Brooks Cone
                          Southeast Michigan
                          Patrol #303, Kit build

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