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Safety Update Regarding Bob's Brake Master Cylinders in Dual Brake Applications

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  • Safety Update Regarding Bob's Brake Master Cylinders in Dual Brake Applications

    Recent testing has revealed the potentially hazardous condition of a locked brake caliper, when using Bob's brake master cylinders in two-pilot installations. This problem only relates to installations using four master cylinders in one airplane, but it requires immediate attention.

    In the installation where the problem occurred, fluid is routed from a reservoir to the pilot's master cylinder's top port, then from the bottom port of the pilot's master cylinder to the top of the copilot's master cylinder. The output at the bottom of the copilot's master cylinder is routed to the brake caliper.

    In this installation, if the copilot applies and holds brake pressure while the pilot applies pressure, the copilot's cylinder can act as a check valve and lock the brake. If the brake fluid routing is different from this case, such as if the reservoir first feeds the copilot's cylinders, then the problem would be reversed. The master cylinders are run in series, and the "middle" set is the problem.

    The Gerdes cylinders use a higher internal parts count and complexity that Bob was motivated to improve on with his design. In an installation where only one pilot uses the brakes, these cylinders are perfectly safe as-is. Give thought to possible future modifications to add a second set of brakes, perhaps making a note in the aircraft's documentation.

    Bob is working on a design solution but for now, if you have an installation with dual pedals, here are the recommended mitigations before further flight:

    First choice: Gerdes Cylinders in the Middle
    Remove the middle master cylinders and replace them with Gerdes cylinders. This will be the least intrusive but will require sourcing a pair of master cylinders. Unfortunately one of the motivators in Bob's redesign was the scarcity of the Gerdes cylinders.

    Second choice: Single Pilot Brakes
    Remove the middle master cylinders and reroute the brake lines to bypass the copilot's brakes. This will require removal of the brake pedals from the copilot's rudder pedals, and possibly creating some new lines. Route the reservoir output to the top of the master cylinder, and route the bottom of the master cylinder to the caliper.

    It may also be possible to operate the airplane safely with dual cylinders in place- we operated this way for several months before encountering the hazard. But carefully consider the risk of copilot brake application, even unintentional. It would be prudent to not allow copilot interaction with the rudder pedals at all, until one of the two choices above can be completed.

    For airplanes still under construction, it will be best to wait for Bob's design solution unless you are very close to the first flight.

    If you have any questions please reach out to Bob by phone at 540-473-3661.

  • #2
    Thanks for posting this Jared. A couple of questions.

    - Can the issue be replicated by pressing on both sets of pedals simultaneously (to test for it), or is it more intermittent?
    - Whats the easiest way to distinguish if we have the affected cylinders ?


    60BFB8E1-EB5E-4645-A7EB-7A9DA619A521.jpg
    Last edited by Nev; 07-11-2023, 10:09 PM.
    Nev Bailey
    Christchurch, NZ

    BearhawkBlog.com - Safety & Maintenance Notes
    YouTube - Build and flying channel
    Builders Log - We build planes

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    • #3
      Actually I just found photos of both types in your post HERE which answers my second question. The ones pictured above are the Gerdes cylinders.
      Last edited by Nev; 07-11-2023, 10:10 PM.
      Nev Bailey
      Christchurch, NZ

      BearhawkBlog.com - Safety & Maintenance Notes
      YouTube - Build and flying channel
      Builders Log - We build planes

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      • #4
        Thanks Nev, you have Gerdes cylinders. Here is the picture from the other post:
        IMG_20220113_095459090.jpg The cylinder on the top is the Gerdes (not effected) and the cylinder on the bottom is effected.

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        • #5
          Jared,

          I am still processing this information with a bit of head scratching going on.

          I do not have the Bob Cylinders. Have 4 Gerdes. Plumbed as you describe. Reservoir feeds both left seat Master Cylinders on the top. The Left side bottom outputs go the the top of the Right hand Master Cylinders. Bottom of the Right hand, Co-Pilot Master Cylinders go to the wheel calipers.

          If my right seat occupant applies the brake pedal, that will be dominant and the brakes will not release until the right hand occupant removes pressure from the pedal.
          The Left Seat, Pilot can increase pressure but not release it. The release is Co-Pilot, right dependant.

          I am inferring that the Bob Cylinder does not have a release pedal unseat function across the piston head.
          With out this function, a blind cylinder can potentially trap high pressure from any Master Cylinder piston to actuate and cause the caliper to go high because of trapped pressure.
          Even if there is only one pair of Master Cylinders in the aircraft.

          Not trying to jump the shark from in the peanut gallery. Bob needs to do his engineering thing.
          Just want to be clear that even with a full Gerdes system that 2 people on brakes at the same time is bad news.
          Non flying pilot should ALWAYS have feet OFF the Brake Pedal.

          This problem is too close to my day job...............

          Kevin D
          #272

          KCHD


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          • #6
            Yes for sure agreed about the universal badness of dual application- the problem in this case was that with no feet on the pedals the caliper was still stuck. I never could get the Gerdes cylinders to do that, not to say they couldn't. I think Bob would love to hear from you on this Kevin, please call him if you are willing.

            Also, I can send you one of his cylinders if you want to check out the internals.

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            • #7
              What if someone 3d printed some chalks that were installed on the co-pilot shaft between the base and fork that prevented them from working. Would that make Bob cylinders safe again without requiring re-pluming everything?

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              • #8
                That sounds like a good idea. I should add that I'm not sure that anyone is actually operating dual brakes with Bob's cylinders yet, other than us. Some projects in progress include four cylinders.

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                • #9
                  I have 4 of Bob’s brake cylinders (not flying) but closely monitoring this thread
                  N678C
                  https://eaabuilderslog.org/?blprojec...=7pfctcIVW&add
                  Revo Sunglasses Ambassador
                  https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCQ0...tBJLdV8HB_jSIA

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                  • #10
                    Odd question. I have Bob's brakes (all 4) with ACS A-600 reservoirs (qty 2) mounted directly on top of the master cylinders. I may not be thinking this through all the way but what if I bought 2 more A-600 reservoirs (so reservoir for each master cylinder) and "T'd" the pressure side before running to the brakes calipers. Does that make sense? Or is that not getting anywhere?
                    -Elliot
                    BH5

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                    • #11
                      Please call Bob and see what he thinks. I don't think the problem is the reservoirs, but rather the series routing of the high pressure line from one into the low pressure port of the other. If you are close to flying and need a solution in the short term he might be able to suggest a solution.

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                      • #12
                        Any updates on progress on this issue?
                        Bearhawk 5 Advanced Quick Build #49

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                        • #13
                          There is progress behind the scenes but it is still underway. Are you going to be ready to fly in the next month or two?

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                          • #14
                            I had this happen to me where my right brake locked up so I ended up removing the back brakes totally.

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                            • #15
                              Were you going slow enough that there was no ground loop or damage?

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