Oratex thread

svyolo

svyolo

Junior Member
I have been P-mailed enough about Oratex I thought I would share my experience so far, including the gotcha's as they arise. Like yesterday. Following the recommendation of a few, including the Oratex folks, I almost wasted a big piece of Oratex, due to a BH geometry issue that I didn't notice either.

Overall I like the product. I covered the tail pieces and gear last fall and it went OK. Simple shapes are extremely easy, going around curved sections requires a bit of work, and sometimes you need 4-6 hands, and I only had two installed as standard equipment.

The material is extremely tuff, and super easy to repair. No smell, overspray, sanding, respirators etc. But.............

The negatives so far are a combination of annoying, and maybe a show stopper for some.

I would say the annoying is the quality of the documentation. And that is coming from someone for whom documentation isn't that important. I usually only read it after I screw something up. The factory manual is very disorganized, comprised 50% of disclaimers on what not to do, and then translated somewhat poorly from German to English. I haven't looked for videos on youtube for about 6 months, but they were few and very poor in quality and technical accuracy. I wouldn't bother.

The show stopper might be the space requirements. For smaller bits like control surfaces a spare bedroom would be great. You need space for the control surface, AND space for you to lay out the fabric piece, apply glue twice, and let it dry. This space needs to be clean, and stay clean. No sanding, grinding, spray painting etc. If you are using your shop then the utility of your shop will be compromised while you cover. When you cover the fuselage (or wing on a fabric covered aircraft), you need space for the fuselage, and an equally big table to apply the glue to the fabric and let it dry. That is a lot of space that is tied up for quite a while, which is the other rub with the factory manual.

There are a lot of disclaimers about doing things exactly one way (very German) including disclaimers on how long you let the glue dry, which I have complied with. But doing that really drags out the covering process. It might take 5-7 days to cover one side of an aileron. Not that amount of man-hours obviously, but a lot of calendar days for one small part. To do a whole airplane in a reasonable amount of time would take a 2000 square foot shop with 4-500 square feet of floor space just for tables to apply and let Oratex dry. If you are doing 1 part at a time in a normal sized 400-1000 square foot, your shop will be tied up for a LONG time. Maybe a lot longer than traditional fabric and paint, even if the actual man-hours of labor are quite a bit less.

The factory has an installer, and they have folks all over the country that install their product professionally. My guess is they allow the glue to dry a lot less than what the factory specifies, otherwise they would go broke installing Oratex professionally.
 
Applying Oratex fabric is similar to covering a model airplane with Monokote or Coverite, except you to apply glue to both sides. A bunch of little super magnets helps to hold the fabric in place while you try to get the fabric to lay correctly with minimal wrinkling, etc. You heat it once at a low temp (125F) to get the glue to set initially, then go over it again at 195F for 10 seconds to make the bond permanent. Going around compound curves the fabric can be both shrunk and stretched with heat while applying it (this is when you need 6 hands). The fabric starts shrinking about 200 F. The hotter more shrinkage. The factory claims the total shrinkage is somewhat less than traditional aircraft fabrics, but you can stretch it with heat while applying it also.

Some of the colors used make the fabric fairly transparent. The yellow I am using has this issue. You have to mark the back of the fabric where you are going to apply glue. I use a light yellow sharpie on the white back. If you use a dark color it will show through the finished fabric.
 
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Fuslage covering.

I spent a bunch of time in the lead up to fuselage covering trying to figure out how to cover the tail in one piece with the side of the fuselage. I was a bit skeptical, and finally decided to put a termination point at the base of the tail and do it separately. That turned out to be a fantastic idea, but not because of the tail itself. The Oratex dealer and a couple of others recommended covering the sides from the bottom longeron, and terminating on the upper stringers. That sounded like a good idea so I tried it assuming it would be no problem now that I had separated the vertical fin from the side piece. I should have just followed the technique that a couple of builders on this forum successfully used, and that is just covering from longeron to longeron.

I spent over half a day yesterday trying to get the fabric to lay correctly. Most of the fuselage side and top is convex. My upper fuselage is less convex than stock as I reduced my BH "hump" by 75% so it faired into the skylight a bit smoother. But it is still convex.

But.....and here was what I didn't catch. The upper longeron is convex until you get to the cargo area, then it's becomes concave to match up with the wing root. Maybe Polyfiber can handle this, but Oratex will not. Actually if you had 5 or 6 well trained, knowledgeable guys with 3-4 heat guns you could heat and stretch the Oratex into shape, but that is not realistic.

I spent way over a half a day trying to figure out some combination of techniques to get the fabric to lay correctly, and finally gave up. I trimmed the fabric above the upper longeron, and will just run the side pieces of the fabric from lower to the upper longeron.

Heading to the shop now to apply glue to the side and fabric. I will post a couple of pics.
 
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Great info, thank you for posting. Depending on your bandwidth, a video showing these challenge areas would be great to see.
 
I don't have a tripod, but I will try to take a quick one while I am fixing yesterdays buffoonery.
 
I guess I would say Oratex save man-hours but wastes a huge amount of shop floor space/calender days if you wait overnight for glue to dry. I think a lot of builders spend an hour a day on their project, they probably don't mind.
 
I covered my Rans S7 in silver oratex and must admit that it was certainly stressful at times due to the threat of screwing up a big piece of very expensive fabric. Looking back on it though, the covering was the most rewarding part of my build. I like Oratex and if I build a BH5 (considering), it will be in Oratex. Definitely some head scratching involved when it comes to curves. I agree that the “manual” is poor. Take a look at the poly fiber manual, presented in a very easy to follow manner, Oratex would be smart to adopt a similar format. Which motivates me to reach out to Lars and suggest this. I found the most cumbersome part of the process was the use of Oratex scraps as anti chafe. This is just adhesive tape when using using the legacy processes. Not as big of a hurdle when building a Bearhawk due to the metal wings. I spent an eternity applying antichafe Oratex to my S7 wings prior to attaching the panels of fabric. I also agree on the space management issue. I found the ping pong table in our game room to be a real winner.
 
Where have you all applied anti chafe (extra oratex) on the Bearhawk? Lars made is seem to me like there weren't many areas requiring it so long as there were no sharp edges.
 
I am just doing the fin and horizontal stabs. The elevator and rudder ribs were pretty well rounded.
 
Can you expound on your decision to not cover the sides in one piece from the bottom longeron to the top stringer and from the tail post forward? Thats what I was planning...
 
I applied anti chafe Oratex to all of the wing ribs and anywhere that might be a potential wear point, Leading edge wrap, etc.. it adds up. Very little anti chafe applied to the fuselage, in comparison. Bearhawk would be easy in this regard. Having disparaged the Oratex anti chafe process though, I absolutely guarantee that it is a better process in the long run, no tape adhesive to fail and let go. Wait, I can’t really say that because Oratex is still somewhat unproven as for longevity.
 
I would do the ribs unless they’re without sharp edges, as svyolo says. Basically, apply anti chafe at any potential wear point
 
I bought a Steinel digital heat gun and the TOKO iron that they recommend. The TOKO was too big for detail work so I bought a little detail iron from Spruce.

I am not sure I have a lot of use for the TOKO iron. Final shrinking is done with an iron, but I think I would rather use a full size iron for that. So far I would say I would pass on the TOKO iron. I might change my mind later.
 
I have bought several sets of them off amazon the last year. Just search on Neodymium super magets. I just did but couldn't find the specific ones I bought. They are really handy for a lot of things.
 
I remember the best ones I bought came from Eastwood. Extremely strong but a bit more expensive. Most of them I got off Amazon. Lots cheaper, not as strong, but more than strong enough for a lot of things.

The stronger ones are great for holding steel together for welding.
 
I am applying the second coat of glue to the left side of the fuselage now. One of the "extra's" with Oratex is it doesn't like unsupported edges. Kind of like the aluminum straps Mark showed to go around the strap hinges on the elevator and rudder. I used those. But wherever the fabric isn't well supported, it is good to put something behind it. I used a combination of scrap .016 AL and in some places used some scrap kevlar. Things like the rudder stop on the tailpost, welded tabs for the stab wire and support rod, grab handles. If there isn't support, you could shrink the fabric away from the tube. Kind of like blowing out an edge when welding.
 
Ruh Roh;
Before I started covering the fuselage, I went over it with my eyes and hands to make sure I didn't have some really ugly high spots on the welds on the clusters. Seemed pretty good, I didn't grind any down. I did on a couple of spots on the tail. I just finished permanently glueing (>195 F) to all the perimeter of the left side of the fuselage, plus the window frame. I started the initial shrink, and then the Ruh Roh. At the cluster where the upper string terminates, there were two high spots on the tubing weld that i didn't catch. They are more than bad enough that I have to fix it.

Preferably put something under the fabric, or over the fabric. Last choice - grind through the fabric, flatten the metal, and repair the fabric. Probably with a carbide burr on a dremel.

$#@%&!!!!! It was going pretty well up to that point.
 
Use the heat gun to unstick the glue, pull the fabric back, fix the weld, apply new glue, activate the glue.

I've done this at 3 spots on my plane due to poor workmanship of the guy I bought it from. Every time I'm so thankful on how easy oratex is to fix.
 
Because it was very quick, I cut a 1 inch circle of Kevlar. Heated the fabric/kevlar/epoxy to 270 F and pushed with felt for a few seconds. Looks pretty darn good. It is behind a removable interior panel and easy to get to.
 
I am about to start applying the Oratex tapes that I bought. I bought the tapes with pinked edges. I think I remember Mark saying the only place he had tapes coming loose was with the pinked edge tapes.

Anybody else using oratex have issues? Do they look better with pinked edges (unpainted), or just straight edges?
 
Just want to say I appreciate your time in sharing your experience with Oratex. I covered my Rans S7S with Stewart Systems, but if I build a Bearhawk I'm considering Oratex.
 
The tapes are pretty spendy, and I already bought the pinked tapes, but it is pretty easy to cut them off.
 
I like the product. I wish I could give it my complete recommendation. The technical documentation is pretty poor, videos aren't just few, they show poor technique which could cost you hundreds if not a thousand or two.

Like I said, I like it. It is OK for my building situation. Some building situations it might add to your build time, instead of saving time. If you do a perfect job, at best it will look as good as a 50% percentile paint job. I also had experience long ago applying similar stuff to model airplanes.

It probably didn't save me build time. Looks are not that important to me. it saves considerable weight (not as much as a fabric covered winged aircraft), and is stupid quick and easy to repair.
 
Betteraircraftfabric in Alaska is a pleasure to deal with. But if something has to come straight from Germany, the shipping is Fedex, and very expensive. They don't fold fabric, it comes in 6 foot wide rolls.
 
I covered my Rans S7 with Oratex and will undoubtedly use it again on my next build. I used straight tapes and would also recommend them, it might be worth your effort to call Lars and see if you can swap them. If not, maybe it is logical to trim them, as you suggest.
 
The fuselage is covered, and about to go back on the gear. I was a bit intimidated in a couple of areas, and chickened out on one area, and went a less risky route. Oratex is very "stiff". It can be shrunk and stretched by heating during application, but can't really stretch much like regular polyester. I bought a couple of yards of polyester from ACS just to see the difference. Near the wing root, the profile went from convex to concave. I have a bunch of little magnets, and still couldn't figure out how to do it. I was going to terminate the cloth on the right top stringer. To salvage the cloth that was already cut, I ended up covering the top in three pieces. Right, middle, and left. It actually looks fine. The only way I could figure out how to do it is 3-5 people, all with heat guns. You can stretch it while applying it, but it takes heat.

Oratex also doesn't like unsupported edges, I think much more so than regular Dacron. Even multiple layers are pretty flimsy. I used Mark G's AL straps around the elevator and rudder hinges, but there were other problem areas. The worse was the float attach fittings. Also little areas like the bolt holes going thru the horizontal stab. i used some thin AL at first, but settled on Kevlar because I had a reasonable amount of scraps. Fiberglass would be just as good, Carbon a little too stiff IMHO. I had the Kevlar scraps already lamenated, and you can cut the laminated Kevlar with heavy shears. Easy. Oratex documentation leaves a lot to be desired. They recommend super glue for stuff like reinforcements and inspection ports, with a second choice as their own glue. For very small parts, I used super glue. Bigger part, they hot glue I felt worked better.

Here are a couple of pics.

A single layer of fiberglass or Kevlar conform easily to taught Oratex. I think they are better than AL. If you want two layers Kevlar is more flexible. I used two layers in a couple areas.
 

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I am using Stewarts Systems Federal yellow painting metal stuff. I really didn't like the way glossy looked next to Oratex, and it is going to look many different ways of wrong depending on the light. So I tried to get a look I liked. I bought some Stewarts flattener, which helped, but it wasn't flat enough, even mixed to the max.

I tried a couple of different types of "texture" i.e. orange peel. I ended up settling on max flattener, and thinning the paint slightly thinner than recommended. I apply fog coats only until color saturation. When you apply it, it looks like heavy orange peel, but because of how thin it is, it gets mostly settles out. I would call it very fine orange peel. The dull sheen it has looks very similar the the Oratex, indoors and outdoors in direct sunlight.
 
I am covering the last control surface, but still have to do all the rib stitching. As I have worked with Oratex, I have liked it less and less. I like the finished product, and the light weight, but I think it takes MORE time and labor, not less.

The support from the dealer in Alaska is very good. The biggest problem, is technical documentation. I would have given it a D- like Colby in his videos until I started the flaps and ailerons. On aluminum structure, the documention is a complete fail. Covering steel tube structures was a bit finicky, but OK. Covering thin aluminum is a whole new ball game, and could easily result in a completely un-airworthy finished product. I am confident the procedure I used has resulted in an airworthy product, but that procedure is spelled out absolutely nowhere in the factory instructions, or the supplement from Betteraircraftfabric in Alaska. I came up with it myself. If you watch Colby's videos, he is almost always doing it with 2 people, sometimes 3. I did it alone, thinking the whole time I needed another hand or four. Occassionally 8 or 10.

A couple of years ago the only yolutube stuff was from the factory. It was below snakeoil salesman quality, and you would have ruined large pieces of fabric in the process. The dealer in Alaska has made some rudimentary videos on youtube since then, too late for me, but still a bit sparse. But better than the factory sales videos by far.

Because my butt will be in the airplane, I thought the process through and was very careful. The correct installation process is so tedious, if I was going to do it a second time, I would trust no one else to do it correctly. But I don't think there will be a second time for me.

I like the finished product, and the weight savings. The rest, for me, is negative.
 
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Thank you for your truth and honesty. We often get silence in the EAB world when something is less than..... Honest data is foundational for knowledge, wisdom, good workmanship and industry best practices.
 
As a follow up, the biggest problem I had by far was the ailerons and flaps, which I thought would have been the easiest. I knew I would need to use more heat on the aluminum to activate the glue (>195F for at least 10 seconds) On steel, I used a heat gun set at 250-280F. I tried it on interior parts of the ailerons. 300F didn't do it. 350 didn't do it. I had to use 380-440F to get a reliable bond. I thought my heat gun was bad but it check out OK. The problem was the very rapid heat transfer of the aluminum. I was expecting it. The biggest issue with this is if you are heating the panel very hot, the whole panel gets hot. If you had previously activated glue under, or near what you are activating, and it gets above 290F for several seconds, the previous glue is destroyed.

There is no explanation of this, or techniques to avoid in either the original factory manual, or the one they made at Betteraircraftfabric. I tried to use the minimum heat to activate the glue, and the overlapping areas, I activated both layers at the same time.
 
I had originally though I would use Oratex, but then found out about Hipec. It's a Canadian product, available from Edmonton, has been around for a while and is light and inexpensive.
 
I understand tempered aluminum doesn’t like temps above 200*F. When repairing or removing the bottom skin stiffeners that are bonded on Whipline floats, its says not to exceed that temp. Probably for protection of the paint? Correct me if I’m off base here but is the final treatment temp for T-3 around 400*?
 
It gets complicated. When I dial 440F into a heat gun, that doesn't mean I am heating anything up to 440F. I am 3-5 inches away. I am trying to get the glue above 195-210F, while the aluminum is transferring heat away as fast as it can. There is a temp gradiant from the surface of the cloth, to the metal. The glue is above the very thin primer, but below the cloth. I do know you can de-heat condition aluminum at a fairly low temp, but I think I am way below that with Oratex. My upper limit is 295F, and that is what I am trying to stay below. What I didn't know is that I would have to experiment myself to try to figure out how to get a temp gradient between 200-295F, over the thickness of .03 inches or so. With no instructions on how to do so. With heavily primered steel, it was no problem. With thin, and very thinly primer-ed aluminum, I could have used a few tips. Instead, I had to experiment to get it right.
 
Hipec looks interesting. I just emailed and asked to download a copy of the installation manual.
 
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