Big Picture Planning

[AKKen07]

Hello all, I’m on the verge of ordering a QB kit from Mark (soon as the boat sells) and am doing some “strategerizing.” I haven’t found a post that answers my question so apologies if this is redundant. And thanks in advance for any suggestions!

Since each build is likely to progress along a different timeline how to you plan when to order an engine, fabric, avionics etc.?

Maybe we could break the build up into 8ths or something and say we need the engine by 3/8ths or something like that?

Also, Lycoming quoted me about $50k for Thunderbolt engine (IO-540) but I was wondering if anyone who has used one of Mr. Barrows’ engines could estimate how it would compare?

Thank you mucho and I’m looking forward to joining your ranks for real! (Anybody need a boat?)

cheers,
Ken

[Bcone1381]

Advice I have heard includes
-buy the avionics last
-buy the engine engine last.
-Dont cover the fuselage until everything else is done.

I am running out of Kit Parts to assemble, and have not made decisions yet on the avionics, electrical, or fabric, but I have an engine on the way from Bob.

My thoughts were that a lot of things are tied to that engine that need to get built, like the cowling, engine control cables, cabin heat box, placement of the battery on the firewall. How can a first time builder plan this stuff without the engine in place. It will be carefully pickled.

If you call Bob, he will walk you thru his pricing options and that information will give you the ability to plan both the time and financial aspects of that part. You will be pleased with price if you compare it to the Thunderbolt price.

[AKKen07]

Thank you very much Brooks, that is very helpful! I will give Bob a call.

[svyolo]

I am probably about 30-40%% done with my QB kit. It is hard to answer as there are too many variables. The big questions are your time and space. If you can only work on one "piece" at a time, then I would not worry about the engine until later. If you have the space to work on everything, I would have the engine at maybe the halfway point. I think from the instrument panel forward, it will take some time. You will be waiting a lot until parts are shipped to you.

I will be mounting my engine in a few weeks. After that I will concentrate on the FWF, and do other things while I am waiting for parts for the FWF. But,I have the space to do that.

Everyone has suggested waiting until the end if you are going to use electronic instruments, so that is what I am doing. I did get a Dynon pitot and magnetometer to mount in the wings, but that is it. If you are using steam guages, I guess it doesn't matter.

[AKKen07]

Thanks svyolo, I’m pretty restricted on space. Building in a 2car garage, so pushing back the engine purchase makes sense. I will be using electronics, I even have them picked out based on today’s options. It will be interesting to see how much change occurs before the time to purchase.

[spinningwrench]

I am pretty early in the build of my Patrol but already a lot will hinge on the engine install. I ordered an engine from Superior. I will go to the factory in March and build it along side a factory tech. Price was slightly more than Bob quoted ($27K from Superior) but I wanted dual P-Mags and Bob hasn’t installed those yet. I also like the fact that we will run it in a test cell to verify hp and performance. I am doing a bit of panel planning but that will wait to the very end.

[AKKen07]

That’s a great idea, if they made a 540 I’d likely do the same.

[Battson]

Advice I have heard includes
-buy the avionics last
-buy the engine engine last.
-Dont cover the fuselage until everything else is done.

These rules of thumb always hold true, because:

-Avionics are changing like the wind, and prices are only going down. This could change in a few decades, but for now I would buy last.
-Engines do not benefit from sitting still for long periods of time. You can pickle them, but its not perfect unless they are overflowing with oil and that upsets the balance on a plane without wings.

When I bought my IO-540 from Bob, with some new and some used parts, it was roughly 28,000 USD. That was over six years ago, so that price may have moved. Six years ago, the Thunderbolt IO-540 was about 54,000 USD.

Things like a hardware starter kit, tools, wheels, selected brake system parts, and stuff like that are best ordered up front.

[AKKen07]

Awesome, thank you Battson. I got a spreadsheet from Mark with some great info. I expect an engine from Bob plus an EFII system to run roughly $35k USD. Of course I still need to talk with Mr. Barrows himself. Which makes it a great deal. Putting it off helps with budgeting too. What would you say is the first mandatory task that requires having the engine present? I’ll attach the intel from Mark for interested parties if I can figure that out...

[Battson]

What would you say is the first mandatory task that requires having the engine present?

I think the first time it held me up was getting the spinner location fixed so I could start on the cowling, also some instrument panel stuff.
I needed to get my firewall fasteners sorted, and the windscreen fairing sorted. Both of those jobs needed the top cowl in place.
I also needed the wing root locations fixed for the windscreen.
Basically there was a bunch of miscellaneous fuselage jobs which I wanted to get finished, but I needed the engine and wings in place.

[Battson]

Here are the things which I ordered up front. Not suggesting this is complete or right, just what I did. Maybe it helps.

​​​​​​Tires
Tubes for tires
Gascolator
Fuel caps
Brake master cyls
Tailwheel
Hardware kit
Aileron/flap rod ends
Aileron bellcrank bearings
Grove wheels
Stringers
Tie down rings
Aileron pulley cable guards
RAC Trim Servo
RAC G205 stick grips x2
RAC rel-2 servo deck
Grove parking brake valve
Shock strut rod ends

[AKKen07]

Very helpful! Thank you Sir. I’m sure I’ll be referring back to these posts frequently as I start ordering.

[Mark Goldberg]

Jonathan - a number of the items in your list are now included with the QB kits. Mark

[AKKen07]

For anybody at my stage, here is a quote from Lycoming with ignition and fuel system removed so the engine can be equipped with a third party setup. The total is $48,300. After an EFII system ($7,695) the total is $55,995.

[svyolo]

I think the only problem with waiting to the end to get the engine, is that the engine should be the first thing mounted on or near the firewall. If you start mounting brakes, batteries, electrical etc before you mount the engine, you will probably end up having to move things, after drilling holes. I guess if you are experienced enough with light aircraft that you know where everything will go, precisely, it might be OK. Or if you have another identical setup to use as a reference.

I am expecting the FWF to take a long time. Lots of details to work out, parts to order, etc. If my shop was only capable of working on 1 piece at a time, I guess the engine would be one of the last things to order.

[AKKen07]

That makes sense, it seems like if I start with the wings I can order the engine sometime around when I move to the fuse without taking a huge delay.

[svyolo]

The wings are not a huge amount of work, especially now since Avipro is drilling them to the fuselage at the factory. If you are space challenged, that might be a good strategy. Do the wings and get them out of the way.

Unless you are really experienced with all this, which I am not, the engine is "primary". Mount the engine, exhaust, et, and that determines where everything else gets mounted up front. Mounting things, and then installing the engine is a recipe for making new parts. Again, this depends on your level of experience.

Good luck with your choices!

[AKKen07]

I see, I am definitely not experienced at this so maybe the engine needs to come sooner. Thanks for the input!

[Battson]

You can leave the engine off until everything on the fuse in finished, I had mine painted and totally complete when the engine arrived. Right down to the carpet and trim. This did not cause any problems, and I had zero experience. Like I say, only one fairing had to wait. There is no need to put anything firewall forward without the engine in place.

I agree that its best to leave the firewall almost totally bare until the engine is installed.
Although, there is a large clearance between the engine and firewall. If you do decide to take some chances, it is easy to work around things or move things around later. 'Bonus' holes in the firewall are easily filled with steel fasteners.

[AKKen07]

Ok, so if I were attempting to put off the engine as long as possible, and avoid “bonus holes” I would start with the wings, then fuse firewall back. But leave fwf bare. A plan is forming...