Realistic Plans Build Time for Experienced Gas Welder

[whee]

Been an interesting read. Lots of different perspectives. The BH isn't a hard airplane to build so your not going to find a equivalent plane to scratch build in less time. I talked to a guy a while back that built two basic fuselages, no fittings, with a friend in two weeks. That's from a pile of tubes to something like this:
image by whee8e
Another friend estimated $2500 in tubing for the fuselage which seems about right. I was never going to scratchbuild wings so I never looked into that cost.

I really wanted a QB kit but I couldn't make it happen. I ended up with a project that another builder wasn't able to finish. I got the fueslage pictured above and wings that at 90% done. In the 4 months we have owned the project we have made it this far:


IMO you need to decide if the BH is what you want, order some plans and decide for yourself if you can make it happen. Everyone tells me it can't be done but I think I can have my plane flying in 2 years at cost just slightly more than what a QB kit costs. Maybe I'm wrong but only I know what my skills are, how much time can be dedicated to the project, how I want it outfitted and what I will be happy with. Lots of guys will think I'm nuts because I'll use a mid time engine or have a $1000 steam gauge panel vs a new $40K engine or a $8K glass panel. This is the great thing about building, scratch or QB, we can equip the way we want or what we can afford. A friend is currently build a QB BH and it is going to be awesome. It will make mine look like it belongs abandoned on a ramp somewhere and I'll probably have some envy issues. But when it comes down to it we both are have a great time building, will end up with the airplane we want and will be able to meet around the same campfire at some remote airstrip.

[LukeS]

Originally posted by Whee >>

"will be able to meet around the same campfire at some remote airstrip."

That's the dream. Can't wait.

[Battson]

Been an interesting read. Lots of different perspectives. The BH isn't a hard airplane to build so your not going to find a equivalent plane to scratch build in less time. I talked to a guy a while back that built two basic fuselages, no fittings, with a friend in two weeks.

IMO you need to decide if the BH is what you want, order some plans and decide for yourself if you can make it happen. Everyone tells me it can't be done but I think I can have my plane flying in 2 years at cost just slightly more than what a QB kit costs. Maybe I'm wrong but only I know what my skills are, how much time can be dedicated to the project, how I want it outfitted and what I will be happy with. Lots of guys will think I'm nuts because I'll use a mid time engine or have a $1000 steam gauge panel vs a new $40K engine or a $8K glass panel. This is the great thing about building, scratch or QB, we can equip the way we want or what we can afford. A friend is currently build a QB BH and it is going to be awesome. It will make mine look like it belongs abandoned on a ramp somewhere and I'll probably have some envy issues. But when it comes down to it we both are have a great time building, will end up with the airplane we want and will be able to meet around the same campfire at some remote airstrip.

I like your thinking Jon.

Reflecting on a few of your thoughts, I got our plane finished (with occasional help) in about 18 months. So please ignore anyone who tells you 2 years is impossible.

The cost was high for us, but as you say - that's a decision everyone can make. We got the new Bob engine at 28k, Dynon glass panel at $4.5k (it actually came out cost-neutral with steam for equal functionality BTW), and all new everything else basically. American dollars, excluding international shipping - probably around 90k I guess.

We always knew we wanted a backcountry beater, and it was only new once. I am not unhappy about the cost, but it could certainly be done more cost-effectively and still be made to look even better than our plane does, given enough attention to detail.

[Zzz]

I think that both the most entertaining and most frustrating thing, at the same time, is finding the gaps in your personal knowledge and filling them. As anyone who's paid attention to my posts around here can see, I have some big gaps, and I have been building and working on mechanical stuff my entire life! But this aircraft project has caused me to constantly evaluate where I want to be on the spectrum of perfection vs that'll do. I hate repeating steps so I often study and study and study and practice on scraps until I've readied myself to do work that is good enough for the airplane. This whole thing is just fun, pure masturbation for the aircraft junkie, so I do what makes me happy in the project. I do want to fly though, and have given myself a realistic 4+ year timeline. I'm a patient man but I also live for progress. I get a little depressed if I haven't done something on the plane for a few days, and a little hit gets me back to normal. Working from home is really helpful scenario too, as I can pop out to the garage to tinker-- but I have to remind myself that the money comes from working on other people's projects, not my own.

The people on this website, as well as Van's Airforce, Supercub.org, backcountrypilot.org, etc are a massively helpful resource. I don't have anyone helping me do the work in person, but the knowledge support of internet friends like Mark Goldberg, Jared, Blackrock, Battson, Dave Lenart, and a host of others make it seem like they're in the shop with me. I've known Whee for probably 6-7 years now and it's cool we're both building the same airplane at the same time. The age of instant photo or video is a lovely thing.

I think i would enjoy scratch building, but I'm not THAT patient. I definitely enjoy the assembly and customization phase much more than the early phases. As for being able to afford a quickbuild kit, I would say that dreaming is cheap, but getting your hands dirty is expensive. I'm constantly buying tools, supplies, etc. Time is an expense as well, but it's usually matched equally by expenditure on actual stuff. This is the most egregious execution of my disposable income yet.

[JakeP]

The people on this website, as well as Van's Airforce, Supercub.org, backcountrypilot.org, etc are a massively helpful resource.

I'm new around here but I feel the same way. These sites and the people you mentioned (and of course many more) have been hugely helpful for our project. A big thanks to all!

[jaredyates]

What a great discussion to elaborate on why build time can vary so much in quantity and relevancy from one builder to the next! I was at Sun-N-Fun today and haven't been back to reply, but it looks like others have made most of the points that I would have made anyway. I'll add that build time, build cost, and quality of life during the build will all vary based on your priorities during the build. If you want to minimize your shop building time, you can spend more time away from the shop to become organized for each upcoming build session. In that case, you aren't really saving time, you are just changing who you bill it to so to speak. In my case, I spend many hours geographically separated from home, so I was able to mentally prepare for build sessions during times that I wouldn't have been able to build anyway. If you want to make building your first life priority, you can log much more shop time in a shorter calendar span, and thus spend less shop time remembering where you left off. You'll waste less time starting and stopping, and that strategy will shorten your overall build time. It may also prune your family tree. For me I never made the building project the first priority, but it was always a high priority. I had 1800 logged shop hours over 4.5 calendar years to finish a kit that had already had 500 logged hours of work. I could do it again in probably half of that time, and an experienced builder, even of another type, could probably also shorten that time considerably. That's why I'd raise an eyebrow if someone told me he was planning to scratch build in 3000 hours. I wouldn't say it's impossible, but I'd say it's not the norm. There will always be outliers in build time and build cost, but there will almost never be a single builder who is an outlier in both categories simultaneously.

[Mark Moyle]

Gimbles,
I concur with and can identify with many of the opinions and experiences others have written on this topic. I started on a scratch build fuselage and QB wings.....quite some time ago. Having ample experience as a welder, fabricator machinst, engine builder and mining engineer....thought no problem...corse I'm guilty of doing things a bit differently....not sticking to plans. Over thinking things and finding myself uncertain caused me to procrastinate and idle my project until comfortable with the next part to build. Then I wreck my flying airplane. Insurance company totaled it. 13 months ago started on a complete restoration ..at one point the Bearhawk was further ahead than the Pacer... Little over 1000 hours into the project....I'm finally painting the fabric... Figured out the key to building an airplane is devoting the time to do it.
Mark M...plans No 938


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[nichzimmerman]

On Eric Newton's website (mybearhawk.com) he has a detailed list of how long each sub assembly took him to build. I found that if I multiply his build times by 2 I have a reasonable guess at how long it will take me to accomplish the same task. If I recall, he recorded less than 3000 total hours on his project, which was almost entirely scratch built.

This was not his first airplane project.

[Wayne Massey]

Gimbles - I think I once saw a rough estimated time to scratch build around 3,600 hours. I've been scratching building the 4-place Bearhawk with currently 2,429 hours of build time logged. (You can see the component logged build time here: http://www.mykitlog.com/wlmassey ) I'm almost to the point of construction that the quick build kit comes delivered. Estimated time to compete a quick build kit is around 1,200 hours. So doing the math that's around 3,600 plus hours in my case to scratch build so close to the estimate. (Another way to look at it is I could have assembled 2 quick build kits by now!)

It's necessary that you really have the desire to scratch build otherwise you likely will not compete it. Don't start scratch building for the sole reason to save money. If you have a normal life anticipate interruptions to the process sometimes long term meaning it likely could take 10 years or more to build. My last long log entry was 09-07-2013 because of a big life interruption. I honestly expected to be flying by now. If I didn't have such a strong desire to scratch build I probably would have quit by now. Even though I haven't been able to work on my Bearhawk for a while I completely anticipate that I will finish it someday.

[Steve W]

The Patrol is my 4th plane. The first was scratch built and then the next two were kits. I went back to scratch built cause it took me the same time to build all three and there was no large fork out of money at the beginning. I like the idea of spending a little money and then have a year or two of work until I shell out a bit more. I purchased the rib and spar kit from Avipro cause I hate making ribs plus I wanted uniformity with all mating and related parts. I also got the tail rib kit. To date, I have recorded 1725 hrs of strictly build time, nothing extra included like research, a second try at a certain part etc. It took 1300 hrs for the wings, flaps and ailerons (not covered). I have the main fuselage and tail group completely welded with only the landing gear fittings completed thus the other 425 hrs. I have spent 12K Canadian so far which is reasonable for what I have fabricated. Some of that was purchased when the dollars were on par.
Everything is now put away for the spring so I can go back to work next month flying you rich guys back and forth to your fishing lodges all summer! Ha! What a life. Anyways, that's about what I can relate for my time and expenses for my project. Just noteworthy, I have a buddy who is 4K hours deep in a Bearhawk fuselage, engine mount and tail group.

[Gerhard Rieger]

Hi all, I spend a year of research on what I wanted for an aircraft, I made up my mind on the 4 place Bearhawk, Plansbuilt was the only way I could ever dream to own my own, Problems, I was working during the day and didn't have money or lots of it any way. The question to me is, do you really want it or not. If you don't you will be like many builders if it was kit or scracth built doesn't matter, you will quit in the first year with or without money. Building your own aircraft is not about money, although it helps allot, if you got lots of it, it is about a dream that live in you. I sold an a rifle I bought for $350 and sold it for $500, I took that and bought my first 032 and 025 sheets to make all the ribs, and spars ailerons and flaps.that was in 2010. I bought other parts as I had money and I now have two complete wings, ready to cover( 025 and 032 sheets in stock) complete airframe on wheels ailerons and flaps. My point is, don't dream life, dare to live life and live your dream, its amazing to see how things start to get together for you once you say, I CAN. make up your mind, and if you want the thing, built it, it beats whatching TV by far and by the way, who pays you to whatch TV, you get nothing for your unspend time, if you built your Bearhawk even if it takes 10 years, you will have the experience and the aircraft to show for it. Have some faith man. Go for it!