New Builder Several Questions

[Sebastian]

I am starting a 4 Place Quick Build Kit and have some questions:

1, The kit I purchased was sitting in storage for several years and the rats had made homes and used it like a jungle gym. Consequently frame and wings need clean up. The wife and I have got the airframe cleaned but my problem is the wings. Anyone have any suggestions on how to clean the inside of the leading edges on both wings? (I really don't want to pull the skin if I can keep from it)

2. I need to decide on tire and wheel size. I will be a new tailwheel pilot. In looking for Bearhawk tail wheels 8" appears to be the smallest. Friends have suggested 6" mains but I was thinking 10".
Any pluses or minuses for either?

3. Has anyone put anything larger than a 260hp engine on these planes? If so what?

[jaredyates]

Welcome! I'll try to help with the following opinions, and hopefully you'll have some other more informed folks chime in.

1. I'd be concerned about long term effects of corrosion from the mouse pee. I picked up a USB borescope on ebay a while back and it was really inexpensive, on the order of $15. It connects to a computer and has its own little LED lighting. Something like that could help give you a good view of what's going on in there. If your top skin isn't rivited yet, that will certainly help with being able to get your hands in if you find an area that needs attention. It's good to take care of it now, since no matter how much of a hassle it is now, it will only get worse as you get further along in the process. Such is the kind of hurdle that makes a second-hand kit less expensive than a new one, but it is certainly fixable.

2. I'd suggest these for the mains: http://www.airframesalaska.com/Alask...abi-199-62.htm They are much cheaper than the Cleveland parts and might even be better. Don't buy new tires yet. Ask around and scrounge some old run-out 600-6 cores to use until right before your first flight. Otherwise they'll just be sitting there getting old while you build. If you land mostly on grass, you'll likely not wear a set out before they start failing from old age anyway. Eric has some guidance on his site about tailwheel size choice, but many folks are using 8 and 10 inch sizes. The Bearhawk does place a lot of weight on the tail wheel, so you are on the right track by looking to Bob's wheel rather than something like the Maule.

3. Yes, though I'd change the follow-on question from "what" to "why." The plane is sprightly with 180hp, and insane with 260. Rounding the numbers, you're looking at an additional cost of $10k and 100 pounds to go from 180 to 260, and to go any larger, you'd be looking at even higher empty weights and more cost. We've seen empty weights over 1750 pounds in some cases, which makes them basically two-seat airplanes. For example, add 400 pounds of people at 200 each, 300 pounds (50 gallons in the main tanks, not even considering aux tanks) of fuel, and you have 50 pounds left for everything else. What kind of mission are you looking for that requires more than 2000 feet per minute of climb rate and 300 foot takeoffs, at such a cost to cargo capability?

[Sebastian]

Jared
Thanks for the comments. Borescope is a great idea to get a better idea of just how bad the clean up will be, so I will start looking for one. Also I looked a the web site you sent and that will sure make thing easier instead of parting out each component. I will also look at Eric's site for the tail wheel info.

Ok as far as power plant let me change the question from: What engine over 260hp? to Why would a person go to more than 260hp?

[whee]

Jared posted good advice so I don't have much to add.

When you get all the mouse stuff cleaned up make sure you thoroughly inspect the wings to make sure you really did get it all. Then after painting the wings treat the insides with ACF50 or CorrosionX. We did a restoration project several years ago that had mice in the wings. We cleaned everything out but the corrosion continued. Once we treated it with CorrosionX it stopped the growth but we still had to replace a wing panel. If you treat the wings before painting you'll have a terrible time trying to get the paint to stick at the skin joints.

We used the ABI-199-62 kit on our plane. They look really nice and seem well made. I wish we would have gone with the 10" wheels so we could run 29" Airhawks or the new 31" tires from Desser but if you aren't going to be flying off-airport where you'll want big tires then I'd stick with the 6" wheels.

I wouldn't install a bigger/heavier engine to get more power because of the reasons Jared said; with 260hp the BH is a rocket. Only reason a person would go with more than 260hp is because they are a horsepower junkie. If you are a junkie, the IO540 can make over 300hp without boost so if you are installing a 540 and have the money for the more expensive and higher horsepower engine then I don't see a downside

[Bdflies]

"Why would a person go to more than 260 HP?" Since we're guys, just talking about this, I'll give the obvious answer; Because there's no such thing as too much power. Until you exceed 1:1 thrust to weight, there's always room for improvement. First time I saw a 4 place Bearhawk frame, I suggested that it needed an Allison C-20. Maule put the Allison on the M-7 and you have to admit the Bearhawk bears some resemblance. Don't you think a turboprop Bearhawk would be pretty cool! There's also the M-14P radial. That's another interesting alternative, but I'm not sure you wouldn't have prop clearance issues, unless you lengthened the landing gear. I was the kid who took apart his perfectly good Camaro, to install a different camshaft, intake and exhaust systems and a bunch of other stuff, so the concept of 'more power' makes perfect sense to me.
But, Jared makes some great points. I never flew a turbine Maule, but have spoken to one who has. He described it as a missile and a ball to fly. But the fuel burn is horrendous, leading to lots of fuel capacity, resulting in very little useful load, when fully fueled. The M-14 makes wonderful sounds, but would require some major re-engineering. And you still have to feed the ponies, meaning more gas and less useful load. A 300hp IO-540 would certainly be doable, without giving up too much. I think all this comes down to the anticipated mission. Aircraft represent compromises in every detail. To go faster, you have to change airfoils and add strength, which adds weight and requires more power, which needs more fuel, that adds weight..... Etc... As designed and executed, the Bearhawk is a great performing 4 place plane, with good off-airport capabilities. It's not a Lancair 4-P and it's not a Supercub. But, neither of those is a Bearhawk either.
Welcome to the forum, Mr Sebastian! Ask more questions and make more comments. And let me know if you come across a good deal on a '71 Camaro. I've still got a few ideas I'd like to try!

Bill

[Baloo]

Fantastic post!

[Bcone1381]

MOUSE URINE BASICS:
(All airplane owners need to understand Mice)

-They don't have bladders, so they leave a trail of urinate wherever they walk,
-They have good sense of smell and track down that trail,
-They like to hang out together.
-So, once that smell is established, another mouse will find it again, and re-establish a new home to party and urinate in exactly the same place.

Focus on Prevention:
-If you don't have a mouse problem yet, keep it clean, and keep it covered and inaccessible so one does not stumble upon a new nifty home and set up shop.
-In your hanger seek out and fill every foundation hole where a mouse could get in...especially around the door.
-Place traps along the wall (thats where they always run) on the outside and the inside of the hanger, and
-Keep the exterior walls free from place where they can hide out. 12" of stone works pretty well.
-Place mouse barriers around each aircraft wheel...simply a hoop of sheet aluminum 6 inches high...so that they cannot climb up gear and into your aircraft.

ENGINE SIZE:
Bob recommends a Max Engine weight of 400 lbs, and You won't like the way it flies with too much weight up front.

Lycoming website says that their 300 hp io-540 weighs about 470 pounds.

For more horse power than that your looking at a Turbo charger. They can get pretty hefty....
http://www.lycoming.com/Lycoming/PRO...ngineData.aspx

[Sebastian]

Whee

Thanks for the heads up about the CorrosionX, I will definitely that in mind.

You mentioned 10" wheels on the mains. I like the idea of that since off airport is in my plans. Question is that since I will be transitioning to a tail wheel pilot will that size wheel make it more difficult?

Bill

I do understand you comment about hp. My comment about that is that there is no such thing as a women to pretty or to much HP. I am going to have to keep in mind the weight factor though.

By the way I hope that you are not having water problems with all the rain my neighbors to the east have gotten.

I do know where there is a restored 69 Camaro convertible for sale.

Bcone

Thanks for the mouse biology lesson. I'm sure that is helpful to more people than just myself.

As far as engine size I am contemplating 300HP (because of off airport flying) but after some of the comments and points y'all are making the IO-540 260HP has me intrigued. I just wish I could actual see a completed Bearhawk and get a ride in one with the 260.

Thanks Everyone for your input.

CJ

[Bdflies]

Thanks for your kind words about the flooding we've experienced. Personally, I'm fine. My place is on a hill... Or, at least as mch of a hill as there is, in South Louisiana... I do know some who's homes were flooded, though. Lots of roads flooded and even Interstate 10 is closed in areas. It's just a very bad situation. Heck, my order of primer was supposed to arrive today! It's delayed... It's bad, I tell you!

Bill

[Av8rPaul]

Whee

Thanks for the heads up about the CorrosionX, I will definitely that in mind.

You mentioned 10" wheels on the mains. I like the idea of that since off airport is in my plans. Question is that since I will be transitioning to a tail wheel pilot will that size wheel make it more difficult?

Bill

I do understand you comment about hp. My comment about that is that there is no such thing as a women to pretty or to much HP. I am going to have to keep in mind the weight factor though.

By the way I hope that you are not having water problems with all the rain my neighbors to the east have gotten.

I do know where there is a restored 69 Camaro convertible for sale.

Bcone

Thanks for the mouse biology lesson. I'm sure that is helpful to more people than just myself.

As far as engine size I am contemplating 300HP (because of off airport flying) but after some of the comments and points y'all are making the IO-540 260HP has me intrigued. I just wish I could actual see a completed Bearhawk and get a ride in one with the 260.

Thanks Everyone for your input.

CJ

Give Mark Goldberg a call and mosey down to Austin.

If you want to see some off airport performance look at some of the videos of Battson and Blackrock. These 540 Bearhawk's are pretty amazing airplanes.

[Battson]

CJ - the most important question yet - what are you going to use the plane for??

We need to know that, before we can give you the right answers to questions 2 and 3.


To add to the existing conversation:
I would't go bigger than the small-block IO-540 for an engine - it would be too heavy and the plane will be hard to land when unloaded. You can still get 300hp from that, if desired - but it will cost you TBO.

I feel like we're talking cross-purposes in this thread between tires and wheels - what do you really want to know? The size of the wheels is academic when it comes to flying, it just limits you choice of tires.


Starting on larger tires (provided you don't go crazy like 29s or larger) doesn't make the plane any harder to fly, in some ways it easier to learn to fly a tailwheel. If you are going to fly backcountry - start on at least 8.50's, seriously. Even 26's are a good start - in fact larger tires make it harder to nose the plane over by hard braking. So in that regard, it's easier to learn to fly a tailwheel plane with larger tires.

[Sebastian]

Bill
You are right when making the statement about cross purposes for my plane. Things that I in vision for my plane are traveling the country with my wife (airplane camping) and hunting. I also have property in Missouri where I was raised that has enough room in the cow pasture behind the house I can make a grass strip. Also a buddy of mine has property west of Uvalde, TX where we hunt and we will be clearing out a strip there. This is where the tire size questions come from cause that place is rough.

My desire is to become proficient with backcountry short field take offs and landings. Also I guess the tire size questions come from the fear of not having flown a tail wheel plane and hearing some of the pilots around me comment on how difficult they can be. I just don't want to handicap myself while trying to learn.

Currently I have decided to put 6" wheels on the plane after hearing from Jared the I can put 26" tires on that wheel. I am also getting the BH 8" tail wheel.

On the engine side even though I haven't spoke with him I am leaning toward the "Bob motor", I like the idea that he builds so that Mogas can be used and I want all the options I can get around fuel.

Also I've watched some videos of the Katmai built from the Cessna 182 and if that heavy plane with a 260hp engine performs like that then what will a light BH do. Whoo Hoo

[Av8rPaul]

Bill
You are right when making the statement about cross purposes for my plane. Things that I in vision for my plane are traveling the country with my wife (airplane camping) and hunting. I also have property in Missouri where I was raised that has enough room in the cow pasture behind the house I can make a grass strip. Also a buddy of mine has property west of Uvalde, TX where we hunt and we will be clearing out a strip there. This is where the tire size questions come from cause that place is rough.

My desire is to become proficient with backcountry short field take offs and landings. Also I guess the tire size questions come from the fear of not having flown a tail wheel plane and hearing some of the pilots around me comment on how difficult they can be. I just don't want to handicap myself while trying to learn.

Currently I have decided to put 6" wheels on the plane after hearing from Jared the I can put 26" tires on that wheel. I am also getting the BH 8" tail wheel.

On the engine side even though I haven't spoke with him I am leaning toward the "Bob motor", I like the idea that he builds so that Mogas can be used and I want all the options I can get around fuel.

Also I've watched some videos of the Katmai built from the Cessna 182 and if that heavy plane with a 260hp engine performs like that then what will a light BH do. Whoo Hoo

You can put 31" Bushwheels on 6" wheels. There is really no reason for a 10" wheel unless you want to run 35" Bushwheels, or want to run the new Desser 31's or 29-1100x10s which are more of a compromise for working off paved strips.

[whee]

Just to clarify my desire for 10" wheels: My airplane will see a lot a pavement making Bushwheels impractical for me. 29" Airhawks or the 31" tire from Desser were the tires I thought I'd end up with.

I don't really like the Bob TW all that much but lots of people here use it and seem to like it. Obviously I don't hate it, I have one but if I hadn't been given such a good deal on it I'd have a 11" Matco TW on my plane.

[Av8rPaul]

Just to clarify my desire for 10" wheels: My airplane will see a lot a pavement making Bushwheels impractical for me. 29" Airhawks or the 31" tire from Desser were the tires I thought I'd end up with.

I don't really like the Bob TW all that much but lots of people here use it and seem to like it. Obviously I don't hate it, I have one but if I hadn't been given such a good deal on it I'd have a 11" Matco TW on my plane.

That's a good set up made even better with the new Dessers.

[Battson]

Bill
You are right when making the statement about cross purposes for my plane. Things that I in vision for my plane are traveling the country with my wife (airplane camping) and hunting. I also have property in Missouri where I was raised that has enough room in the cow pasture behind the house I can make a grass strip. Also a buddy of mine has property west of Uvalde, TX where we hunt and we will be clearing out a strip there. This is where the tire size questions come from cause that place is rough.

My desire is to become proficient with backcountry short field take offs and landings. Also I guess the tire size questions come from the fear of not having flown a tail wheel plane and hearing some of the pilots around me comment on how difficult they can be. I just don't want to handicap myself while trying to learn.

Currently I have decided to put 6" wheels on the plane after hearing from Jared the I can put 26" tires on that wheel. I am also getting the BH 8" tail wheel.

On the engine side even though I haven't spoke with him I am leaning toward the "Bob motor", I like the idea that he builds so that Mogas can be used and I want all the options I can get around fuel.

Also I've watched some videos of the Katmai built from the Cessna 182 and if that heavy plane with a 260hp engine performs like that then what will a light BH do. Whoo Hoo

Perfect - thanks.

Yes - your choices make sense to me, and seem wise to my way of thinking.

Some thoughts:

The only need for a really big tailwheel for soft surfaces where your foot sinks into the ground a little, such as muddy / puggy grass or dirt, beach sand, soft river bar shingle - that sort of thing. I imagine TX is a drier, firmer place - you'll know best.

26" Goodyear main tires on 6" wheel hubs will be perfect for your uses. If you like to have lots of braking on wet grass, the Goodyear 8.50 tires are perhaps a better choice than the smooth 26's. Not another brand of 8.50s, some other brands are quite a bit smaller.

I think 260hp will be ample power. Even fully loaded, you are going to easily out perform a Cessna 180 carrying equal load.

[Av8rPaul]

.... Even fully loaded, you are going to easily out perform a Cessna 180 carrying equal load.

THAT'S what I'm talking about.