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  • Companion and Rans S-21

    Originally posted by Light&Sweet View Post

    Have you discussed anywhere your decision to build a Companion to replace a Rans S21 (if I have that supposition correct)? The Rans appears to be close to the Companion in performance and payload—lesser, but close.
    Several have asked me about this, mainly on YouTube, some in person and a few on forums.

    Full disclosure, the S-20 I learned in and then the S-21 I was flying were not mine. I had nearly full access at a very low hourly rate, and for that I am forever grateful to a good friend of mine.

    So I will start with the S-21 (just 21 from hear on out). I loved flying the 21, it was simple with single knob control behind the Rotax 915. The turbo was fantastic, simple and always dependable in some pretty harsh environments I flew over. I always had near complete (is it ever possible to have complete confidence when flying over the most remote terrain in the lower 48?) confidence in the Rotax. That being said, the 21 weighed 985 pounds and was a light sport, yes you can build them and have a max gross weight of 1800. N4488B is a factory built certified plane that started life as a nose dragger, when my buddy bought it he immediately converted it to a tailwheel. This had some drawbacks, it sported a 70” three blade fixed pitch prop, IF it had the Airmaster “constant speed” and a 75” prop it would be a very different animal. But then it would not be a light sport. I am not a cowboy, I only land I actual strips albeit some in remote areas, some not on charts, and some fairly rough. I am a fly fisherman, and the plane is a tool to take me to great fishing spots. Yes I love to fly and fly a lot for fun beyond fishing, but fishing is the main goal. Landing in cool weather in the morning is a lot different than taking off in hot temperatures and high DA’s in the afternoon after fishing. We have all heard or been told not to land where you can’t take off. I have a personal limitation of double my landing or takeoff distance plus 100’, which ever is longer. As long as I am within that limitation I have no qualms about landing in short/remote areas. I have landed on a 800’ strip and used just over half, but that was a quick stop on a cool morning not a fishing stop that would have necessitated an afternoon takeoff in 80* plus temperatures from 5000’ elevation with DA’s well over 8000’. There is a 700-800’ strip I want to fish out of, and I was never comfortable enough land there in the morning knowing I would be taking off in high DA’s in the afternoon.

    My Companion will have a 200HP engine with a 82” STOL type prop, so I expect it to get off the ground in about 2/3rds of the 21 when loaded for a typical fishing day in the backcountry which is 1/2 fuel and light on fishing gear. The companion has 185 sq ft of wing, the 21 has 141 sq ft of wing, and that is a big difference. I expect my companion will weigh about 215 pounds more than the 21. Both have the Ribblet wing. I am a firm believer that a tube and fabric plane is more durable than a 21 style fuselage. And when you consider that Bob Barrows designs the Bearhawk to utility category rather than standard category you are really into a rugged plane.

    So ruggedness……

    The 21 is a backcountry capable plane, it is not a backcountry plane. The S-20 is a backcountry plane. The empennage on the 21 is just not stout enough in my opinion, we had some issues in the tail section/tailwheel attach area on the 21. I won’t go into detail, but suffice it to say do not put a heavy duty backcountry tailwheel/spring on the 21. It was converted back to the factory single leaf spring after multiple issues. There are tons of Cessna 170’s, 180/5’s that fly the backcountry with spring gear, but I just think oleo style gear is just better for backcountry strips.

    The Companion has a max gross of 2200 pounds, and I expect to have about 1000 pounds useful load. At my weight I do not see any scenario when I could get even close to 2200 pounds takeoff weight. I would have to gain 85 pounds and find a fishing buddy that weighs 275 pounds and load the cargo area with the full 250 pounds just to reach max gross. I see that as impossible on many fronts.

    In theory my Companion will fly faster in cruise, and slower in canyon configuration. The power to weight is pretty similar between the two, but the larger wing surface bias’ towards the Companion.

    (Edited to add: I am basing the similar power to weight ratio on my elevation and DA’s, those at sea level would have a different scenario)

    So all of that said, I do in fact think the Companion is a better choice for my needs.

    As for my buddy, he flies the crap out of his 21, he has flown twice in the past week to Flaming Gorge to fish. Flies to Idaho multiple times a month to fish. He has put bigger ties on the plane since I stopped flying it and it is really a great tool for him. So why does he have a Rans S-20 on order? He too thinks the 20 is a better backcountry plane. The 20 we flew prior to him buying the 21 had a 100hp Rotax, fine in the winter, but a bit doggy in our higher altitude environment in the summer, especially with two people on board. Several times I had to make spiral turns to gain elevation to clear terrain, never had to do that in the same terrain with the 21’s 915 power. He is going to have the S-20 built with a 915, and is told it will have similar cruise speed performance. The 21 cruises at 125-128 mph TAS. The transition to the 21 from the 20 took a bit of getting used to, you could put in full flaps on the 20 and point the nose down for an approach and it would not gain any speed, do the same thing with the 21 and it accelerated like a rock dropped from a plane. It was unnerving for the first 10 hours before I figured it out, it was a non-issue after that, but I do think the 20 is a much easier plane to fly slowly.

    So all that said, every plane is perfect some a mission, the Companion is the best choice for my mission.
    Last edited by Utah-Jay; 06-17-2022, 03:34 PM.
    N678C
    https://eaabuilderslog.org/?blprojec...=7pfctcIVW&add
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  • #2
    Ruggedness, however you define it, is the biggest difference. Look at the S21 build photos on the RANS website to see for yourself. The S21 has a hybrid and much lighter fuselage structure, uses 6061 instead of 2024 aluminum, pulled rivets etc.). Despite generally similar performance numbers the S21 and Companion are apples and oranges.

    Comment


    • Utah-Jay
      Utah-Jay commented
      Editing a comment
      Having flown a 21 a lot, and having watched a lot of 21 build videos I can tell you there is not much in common relative to construction

  • #3
    I think the Companion is sort of the "sleeper" Bearhawk design, I'm hopefully 6-9 months from flying my 4-place but if starting a build today that would be my choice. When I started my build, too many years ago, the 4-place was a better fit. Now I know I will rarely even have the rear seats in. If it was only my choice I would build a patrol, but I know my wife would hate the back seat, probably would have some issues getting in an out. The 200# increase in gross weight over the Patrol is nice also. I think you are going to have a really great performing plane with that 200hp engine.

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    • #4
      Bob & I both think a 200 HP Companion built light with a C/S prop will be a great performer. Going to turn some heads when the Companions start flying!!!

      And I 100% agree with Greg C's post above. While the specs show some similarity in the numbers - night and day different how they are designed and built. Mark

      Comment


      • #5
        Originally posted by rodsmith View Post
        I think the Companion is sort of the "sleeper" Bearhawk design, I'm hopefully 6-9 months from flying my 4-place but if starting a build today that would be my choice. When I started my build, too many years ago, the 4-place was a better fit. Now I know I will rarely even have the rear seats in. If it was only my choice I would build a patrol, but I know my wife would hate the back seat, probably would have some issues getting in an out. The 200# increase in gross weight over the Patrol is nice also. I think you are going to have a really great performing plane with that 200hp engine.
        Rod

        Same here in there is no way my wife would ride in the back seat, we have actually had that discussion while in the air and it is a lot more social to be sitting side by side. I only hope I get similar speeds when I have my prop set to cruise for the cross country trips I make which are actually quite a few. I know I will be able to get up quick when I set the prop for short field operations.

        Originally posted by Mark Goldberg View Post
        Bob & I both think a 200 HP Companion built light with a C/S prop will be a great performer. Going to turn some heads when the Companions start flying!!!

        And I 100% agree with Greg C's post above. While the specs show some similarity in the numbers - night and day different how they are designed and built. Mark
        Mark, no doubt on the night and day. The BH construction in general was an easy decision for me, and the Companion was a no-brainer. I am hoping my plane allows me to get into the 600-700’ strips that allow me to fish in the most remote areas of Idaho. I know it will be more than adequate for the most demanding strips here in Utah. I’ll give Simonds and Mile-Hi a miss, but the rest of the BC 4 will see some action from N678C
        Last edited by Utah-Jay; 06-18-2022, 03:04 PM.
        N678C
        https://eaabuilderslog.org/?blprojec...=7pfctcIVW&add
        Revo Sunglasses Ambassador
        https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCQ0...tBJLdV8HB_jSIA

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        • #6
          A viewpoint of tandom or side by side seating.

          Before deciding on which aircraft you will build, consult your wife.

          "No way I can get my wife to ride in the back seat." I understand....your wife wants to sit next to you. Awesome. Another wife will say "Why didn't you build a Patrol! I want to see out both sides of the aircraft, not just the right side." The most important thing is the buy in of your companion buy in if you choose the Companion or the Patrol.
          Last edited by Bcone1381; 06-22-2022, 12:10 PM. Reason: clarification, speling
          Brooks Cone
          Southeast Michigan
          Patrol #303, Kit build

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          • #7
            You want to actually fly in both a tandom and side by side not just talk about it. My bud's wife wasn't super interested in tandom, so they bought a husky, and she loves it.

            Comment


            • AKKen07
              AKKen07 commented
              Editing a comment
              You know, I would bet over 90% of passengers would prefer side-by-side. My wife made it a requirement for our plane. She has flown in both so she knew what she liked and didn’t. Frankly I dislike the back seat of a tandem too.
              If I were single, however, Tandem is a lovely arrangement.
              Last edited by AKKen07; 01-07-2023, 12:20 PM.

          • #8
            Originally posted by Mark Goldberg View Post
            Bob & I both think a 200 HP Companion built light with a C/S prop will be a great performer. Going to turn some heads when the Companions start flying!!!

            And I 100% agree with Greg C's post above. While the specs show some similarity in the numbers - night and day different how they are designed and built. Mark
            Hi Mark
            'm currently considering the Companion or S21, truthfully the 4B really caught my attention as, in my opinion, the best all around 4 seater out there. 4 people, huge useful load, great cruise speed, great STOL, can add floats, etc etc. I've come to realize that I probably won't use 4 seats all that often and I'm leaning to the Companion. It seems the companion and S21 would have similar cruise speeds with the Companion having more useful and better STOL IMO. My questions are;
            1. What is the G limits?
            2. VNE?
            3. Can you add floats to the Companion?
            4 .With such a high baggage weight would it be possible to add a small jump seat in the baggage area?

            It would be great to have the abilty to carry my whole family of 3 with my 60lbs 8 year old son in a third seat.

            Thanks

            Comment


            • #9
              If floats are in your future, go with the 4 place, you lose a lot of useful load on floats (float weight, and add in fishing gear, anchors, waders, ect). And that 8 year old will end up being 180 lbs in a few years.

              Comment


              • #10
                Originally posted by Thyfish View Post
                4 .With such a high baggage weight would it be possible to add a small jump seat in the baggage area?
                Sounds like your just inching back to the 4 place... The 4 place does make an outstanding two seater. We split our rear seat and typically run it as a 3 seater with lots of baggage space.
                The images below are representative how the plane was loaded in the video I recently posted landing at Nikolai Pass.

                image.png
                image.png

                image.png

                Comment


                • Thyfish
                  Thyfish commented
                  Editing a comment
                  Thanks Kestrel. You may be right....with floats and the need to take an extra person that might make more sense. I was trying to get away with something in between......I'd probably want the 540 in the 4 and that could cost a bit more in fuel, and fuel is really really expensive here in Canada....like over $10 a gallon!

                  I'll try to find your videos!

              • #11
                Love that Cotopaxi gear! My son is the "E" Commerce manager for Cotopaxi. And that's quite a "load out."

                Comment


                • #12
                  1. What is the G limits?
                  2. VNE?
                  3. Can you add floats to the Companion?
                  4 .With such a high baggage weight would it be possible to add a small jump seat in the baggage area?


                  The Companion was designed for utility category strength at FULL gross weight. Do a little research and see what G loads the plane can handle. Also to be considered - the fuselage, landing gear and landing gear attach points are from the 4 place with a 300 lb higher gross weight. So very rugged L/G.

                  Not 100% sure on the VNE as it is not on the plans. Either 160 mph or 170 mph. Would need to ask Bob.

                  Yes, If you order a kit we can weld on the rear float attach fittings and the forward attach point for a belly ventral fin. $300 extra

                  Recently talked with Bob about this because a Companion customer wanted to add a seat to the baggage area of his Companion. Bob said yes, and we are going to provide the customer with a rear seat like the Patrol pilot's seat with the bushings welded in to attach it. Not sure how much this will cost the customer yet. Mark

                  Comment


                  • Thyfish
                    Thyfish commented
                    Editing a comment
                    Thanks for the quick response Mark. I'll have to nail done what my main mission will call more for. The third seat option and float attachments from factory on the companion would make the decision even more difficult for sure!

                • #13
                  Originally posted by TrueAirSpeed View Post
                  Love that Cotopaxi gear! My son is the "E" Commerce manager for Cotopaxi. And that's quite a "load out."
                  We bought a pair of them for our Alaska trip. They were fantastic! ...still are.

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