Latex Paint

[whee]

Want to share an experience with latex paint on aircraft fabric. Few months back someone on here posted a youtube video of a guy that has been experimenting with latex. I watched it and the webinar he did for EAA and I emailed him a few times. Pretty cool guy that has gotten some really good results with latex on his airplanes.

I need to insert here: I do NOT plan on using latex on my BH. Based on my experience with it so far and my communications with Malcolm I think it would be totally fine but I'm too chicken. I just want to share my experience with those that may be interested.

Recently I did some work on my boat. Part of that work was building a new top for it. Lots of riverboaters use either hardtops (aluminum covering typically 1/8" think) or fixed frame soft tops (aluminum frame with canvas stretched and snapped in place). For weight savings I decided to go with a soft top. I thought it could be a good experience to cover the frame in ceconite but I didn't want to spend the money on real aircraft paint for this experiment so I decided to use latex. My boat lives outside so it will be a good test of the paint/fabric combo.

Here is the frame:
Untitled by Jon Whee, on Flickr

Bought some heavy uncertified fabric from ACS.
Untitled by Jon Whee, on Flickr

All shrunk and taped in the same fashion demonstrated in Stewart Systems youtube videos. Yes, I'm officially youtube certified for aircraft covering
Untitled by Jon Whee, on Flickr

Applying the Glidden Gripper primer. Here is where I screwed up. I used a regular brush instead of a foam brush so even though I dry sanded between each primer coat I couldn't get all the brush lines out. Had I used a foam brush I wouldn't have had this problem. First cross-coat needs to be brushed on to ensue the primer gets a good mechanical bond to the fabric and it needs to be thinned with 20% distilled water. Guess here is a good time to note that I didn't clean the fabric with anything. Probly should have.
Untitled by Jon Whee, on Flickr

After the first cross-coat we started using our graco airless paint sprayer. The paint pump is awesome and makes house projects so easy. We applied 2 more cross coats of primer (so 6 coats total). We could have stopped after the second cross coat but we weren't sure at the time.
Guess I lost the pic of us spraying the primer.

First coat of color (Sherwin Williams All Surface Enamel latex based). All color was applied using the graco paint pump.
Untitled by Jon Whee, on Flickr
Untitled by Jon Whee, on Flickr

We applied 5 coats of paint (2.5 cross coats). Again we could have stopped at two cross coats but we didn't know.
Untitled by Jon Whee, on Flickr

We didn't bother with wet sanding or polishing like Malcolm does so we didn't get a mirror finish like he does but we are really happy with how it turned out. It was really nice to not mess with an air system and it was unbelievably easy to get reasonable results. The only downside I've found so far is latex paint never hardens. If I wanted to I could dig my fingernail into the paint and dig out a chunk. I tried and you have to dig hard enough that it hurt my nail but I think you could get some off. Malcolm said you can touch it up with a art brush and you won't even know it was there.

If anyone wants to see some close up pics let me know an I'll try to take some. The boat has been outside for three weeks, weathered several thunder/rain storms and one Idaho hail storm (ID hailstorms are pretty light with only BB sized hail).

Also worth noting: I used 3M Fastbond 30NF adhesive for this. Malcolm said he heard it was the same as Stewarts eko bond. Amazon only had the neutral glue in the quart size an not the green/blue like Stewarts, I could have bought a gallon in the green but I didn't want to buy that much. I have limited experience with Stewarts glue but I'm almost positive this 3M glue is the same stuff.

[Chris In Milwaukee]

That's a great write up. Thanks for sharing! I also have a wooden PA-18 replica I'd like to start fairly soon. Budget build from the get-go, and latex is on the list.

[JimParker256]

Looks good! Maybe I need to build a canopy like that for my John Deere tractor... Hmm...

[Bdflies]

Nah. Get a tractor with an air conditioned cab! Best $$ I ever spent!

[JimParker256]

Yeah, that ship has sailed... CFO vetoed that idea. Says that if I would just get out there earlier in the morning, when it's only 90°, I wouldn't need an A/C cab... Rough when your wife is tougher than you are!

[interstate al]

Very informative post Whee, Thank you! I have watched the latex videos several times with interest but like you I think I'll stick to a traditional paint system.

[jaredyates]

Interesting. Does the fabric get any UV protection from this process? In their book, the polyfiber folks seem to get all ants in the pants about the silver coats being necessary to keep the UV from reaching the fabric.

[Chris In Milwaukee]

There was an interesting study done with some spectroscopy equipment by EAA Chapter 54 in 2003 that was documented here:

http://www.ultralightnews.com/features/pdf/54NewsletterMarch2003.pdf

Starts on Page 4. Pretty cool stuff!

~Chris

[whee]

Chris linked the only real study I know of. Sort answer is yes, latex provides UV protection of the fabric.

Another guy made up a frame with fabric and several different latex paints and set it outside his hangar for 6 years. Every so often he would try to jamb his thumb through the fabric and it wasn't till the 6th year he was able to puncture the section with a single coat of paint. The rest of the panel was fine.

I asked Malcolm what his thoughts were since he has been experimenting with latex for a while. His response was something like "my house lives outside and is doing fine." Makes sense to me. Wood structures have to protected from UV and other weathering, latex paint does that job rather well.

[whee]

Minor update. Had the boat out when a series of thunderstorms rolled through. Very high winds that destroyed my REI tent and some marble sized hail that had everybody ducking for cover. No damage occurred to the fabric on the boat. A relative that built a Starduster years ago looked over the boat top and was impressed with the finish. Like me he thought it looked great but still probly wouldn't use it on the BH.

[Glenn Patterson]

There was a couple articles in Kitplanes on the Dawn Patrol group. Several of their airplanes were finished with latex house paint. One article was building a low wing WW1 replica. It seemed that the Dawn Patrol wanted to fly and not invest deep pocket money into their WW1 replicas. In the case of a Bearhawk, it is a challenge to build on a shoestring budget. The latex paint may affect the value and longevity of the fabric. My preference would be to make the fabric long lived as possible as I have no interest in redoing fabric anytime soon.

We used Stewarts System as it used water instead of volatile thinners that works better when painting in the presence of a woodstove. If I had a safer shop set up to paint then I would have used the Endura urethane as it is used in transports, industry and aircraft. The product is tougher than iron and finishes glassy smooth. We can buy Endura locally and have it mixed to whatever colour is needed. There is an Endura urethane component added to make the product flexible for aircraft fabrics. Endura has good technical support for their product line as well. The Endura would be around half the cost of Stewarts with all the costs factored in and the dollar exchange rate. The shipping costs for Stewarts is brutal as there are no freight options like our American counterparts. The Stewarts had to be ordered when there was no risk of it freezing and even taking the best of precautions had a gallon of primer freeze enroute.

The Stewarts product worked well but the SS urethane is as toxic as any other when spraying. If a person does not maintain good air change & wear proper personal protection they will suffer the same the same as using any other brand of urethane with or without solvent. The water is the only none toxic component in the system. We did a lot of reading, watched the DVD's and spoke with Stewarts. Stewarts technical support was always available and fully supportive to taking our calls so they definitely support their products. The end product came out glassy smooth and so no issues with the gloss. Follow the Stewarts DVD's, manual & Youtube postings to learn the process to lay down good paint. All waterborne behaves differently so take the time and practice on poster board to learn the techniques.

Glenn

[whee]

Thanks for sharing your thoughts and experience Glenn. I fully intend to use Stewart System on my BH though my experience and googling has me believing that the only downside of a good latex paint job is the perceived ill effects on the fabric and thus the decrease in value. Though my boat has only been out in the weather for 3 months very early signs seem to be indicating that the latex will hold up just as well as traditional coatings and provides equal uv protection. But obviously it is too early to tell for sure.

I will say this, if all signs remain good then when I eventually build a LSA it will get painted with latex.

[Glenn Patterson]

The top on your boat looks great & is very practical system. Definitely a place to see how latex stands up where you live. I joined the local flying club about 10 years ago and they had just recovered the club's Supercub. They were in a legal hair pull over being overcharged for the work. About 3 years ago that fabric & paint was a mess so 2 club members that were AME's took it on and put a new fabric on. They used the regular Stitts materials. The new paint is in the process of cracking & prematurely aging. We went with the Stewarts urethane hoping & trusting that it will last longer. If our paint fails earlier than expected then it may as well be a good latex. It would keep the life time ownership costs lower.

[whee]

Here we are a year later and my boat top still looks new. My dad touched up a spot where I ran the top into a pine tree and scrapped off some paint. Otherwise I'm still really pleased.