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Bearhawk Welding Debate

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  • #31
    Years ago I heard Lou Stolp say "the problem with amateurs welding airframes is that they start with the fuselage, the heart of the airplane. By the time that they are competent, they're welding on the stringer tabs".
    Gerry
    Patrol tandum #30
    • Likes 2

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    • #32
      That’s why I started my gas welding with this!
      Figured a few (or many over the course of the years before I start fuselage welding) projects to keep my wife happy would be a good idea to not become an expert AFTER I finish the fuselage
      John Wiltberger
      Model B - #1544B
      Maricopa, AZ
      • Likes 4

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      • #33
        Does anyone know what OA rod uses to weld his fuselages? Ive been using er70s-6 but I also have some RG-65 that I think welds easier/better.

        Comment

        • Mark Goldberg
          #33.1
          Mark Goldberg commented
          11-20-2019, 06:53 PM
          Editing a comment
          RG60 or R60 is the most commonly used. Mark
      • #34
        Thank you Mark

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        • #35
          Originally posted by Cameron Ramsey View Post
          Does anyone know what OA rod uses to weld his fuselages? Ive been using er70s-6 but I also have some RG-65 that I think welds easier/better.
          Gas or tig? All my welding was done with tig and ER70S-6

          Comment

          • Mark Goldberg
            #35.1
            Mark Goldberg commented
            11-21-2019, 03:44 PM
            Editing a comment
            That is what we use for TIG. MG
        • #36
          The AWS designation "RG" as in 'RG-60' suggests the fillermetal is a Rod for Gas welding. I can recall RG-45 and RG-60 being commonly available. Anytime we see "ER" as in ER70s-6, the fillermetal is suitable as an Electrode (as in MIG or submerged arc welding) and suitable as a Rod, primarily for TIG welding. The majority of ER fillermetals are used in consumable electrode processes (MIG or SAW). These are designed with de-oxidizers and alloys to produce clean welds in an arc environment. A gas flame is a completely different environment.
          I'm not going to suggest that the 'ER' consumables should not be used in the OxyAcetylene process, but that’s not their intended use. It’s not surprising to me that the RG rods weld better.

          Bill
          • Likes 1

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          • #37
            Make or buy lots of welding coupons and make a clamp to hold pieces in all positions then weld, go take an AWS certification test, even if its just in the 1G position, it's good to be able to do it.

            many people selling coupons and practice kits cheap on ebay

            https://www.ebay.com/itm/Welding-Kit...AAAOSwuSxeZpOI

            https://www.ebay.com/itm/Alloy-4130-...0AAOSwrQ5cD9YI

            https://www.aircraftspruce.com/catal...bargainbag.php

            practice makes perfect.....

            BTW
            industrial chrom moly pipe is welded with flux core MIG and shielding gas
            The challenge to MIG on this frame is the thin material, it takes a LOT of skill to do it right and move fast enough.
            Last edited by steve1428; 02-21-2021, 11:05 AM.

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            • Bcone1381
              #37.1
              Bcone1381 commented
              02-21-2021, 11:22 AM
              Editing a comment
              I got the ACS tubing cutoffs that you suggested a number of years ago. I use that tubing for all sorts of jigs, and what not. All pieces are cut 1 foot long, so it stores under the bench easy. Most of the tubes are bigger than what we'll use on the airframe, but again...very handy to have a selection of tubing sizes for who know what.
            • Archer39J
              #37.2
              Archer39J commented
              02-22-2021, 11:53 PM
              Editing a comment
              +1 for the ACS cutoffs, about to order another myself.
          • #38
            Originally posted by steve1428 View Post
            Make or buy lots of welding coupons and make a clamp to hold pieces in all positions then weld, go take an AWS exams certification test, even if its just in the 1G position, it's good to be able to do it.

            many people selling coupons and practice kits cheap on ebay

            https://www.ebay.com/itm/Welding-Kit...AAAOSwuSxeZpOI


            https://www.ebay.com/itm/Alloy-4130-...0AAOSwrQ5cD9YI

            https://www.aircraftspruce.com/catal...bargainbag.php

            practice makes perfect.....

            BTW
            industrial chrom moly pipe is welded with flux core MIG and shielding gas
            The challenge to MIG on this frame is the thin material, it takes a LOT of skill to do it right and move fast enough.
            Sure thing

            Comment

            • #39
              This was an entertaining conversation to read. Being a professional welder with internationally recognized certifications in pressure welding. Attending college & completion of trades school. My resume is longer than normal. I should have a bunch of advice to say. However with my understanding of the subject. My statement is this. 1. Gas welding is a very slow process that is Very easy to see & understand your weld faults as you make them. 2. TIG welding is very similar except ! The welding equipment is more complex to operate & the consumables must be appropriate for the task. 3. MIG is fine as well. However this process happens much much faster around very small diameter thin walled tubing & should only be used by an experienced operator. What I am saying is that if you are not experienced enough to understand what I am saying. Consider gas welding your 1st frame.
              Personally I will be using a MIG to build & tack my Bearhawk frame & welding it out with a TIG machine.
              • Likes 6

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              • #40
                I would like to come to gas welding’s defence ...

                ive not read through the whole thread in awhile... apologies if this is already mentioned...

                gas welding can do some things other techniques cant

                its not reliant on infrastructure.... you don’t need to plug it in... and you don’t need to call an electrician to run a 220 line out to the garage...so anyone living out in the woods can get their welding done...

                And you can get started relatively cheaply....

                what I’d like to know is how good is a poor tig weld vs a poor gas weld ?...

                Alaska Bearhawks videos on weld failure(though not scientific) gave me a lot of confidence to do my own gas welding... showing that even a poor gas weld would hold 5000lbs vs 7000lbs of a good weld..

                wondering how the other methods fare if it’s a poor weld...
                Last edited by way_up_north; 05-05-2021, 02:40 PM.
                • Likes 1

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                • noema
                  #40.1
                  noema commented
                  05-01-2021, 01:22 PM
                  Editing a comment
                  I started TIG welding quite recently and spent maybe 500 usd initially. By now I added a gas lens and a swivel torch for another 200 and an Optrel helmet with respirator for 1400. Latter is totally unnecessary but really helped me getting a lot of hours under the hood quickly. These addons allow you to weld in comfortable positions and breath fresh air while doing it.
              • #41
                I have been welding for over 50 years. Most of it was done for small bore, tube frame formula cars. Cars that were largely build from 18 gauge steel tubing.

                I taught myself to gas weld aluminum to make fuel tanks for the cars I was building and selling, decades ago. That was before we had to use fuel cells. For fuel tanks I think gas welding is the best way but I did not do that on my 4 place Bearhawk, mainly because I have not done any gas aluminum welding in decades.

                I think that gas welding is the best place to start And when I teach people to weld I start them with gas.

                As much welding as I have done, I do not use MIG welding. Years ago, I spend a lot of money buying good MIG equipment and as hard as I tried, I never got to the point that I was satisfied with my MIG welds. I also never had anyone working for me who was any better with a MIG gun than I was. What bothers me about MIG welding is the shape of the weld fillet and the edge of the weld in relation to the base material. It always looks like a perfect place for a crack. When I went to all TIG welding on my race car frames, the issues with cracked welds almost became non existent.

                One thing about welding race car parts, you get to see how you work holds up in destructive testing. Many of my suspension components are made from .049 thick 4130 airfoil tubing.

                This is my welding experience. I may not be worth the time it takes you to read this rant. But this is why I am dubious about MIG welding and why I am not persuaded by anyone's argument in favor of MIG welding on thin wall tubing such as we use in out air-frames.
                • Likes 4

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                • #42
                  Originally posted by S Lathrop View Post
                  I have been welding for over 50 years. Most of it was done for small bore, tube frame formula cars. Cars that were largely build from 18 gauge steel tubing.

                  I taught myself to gas weld aluminum to make fuel tanks for the cars I was building and selling, decades ago. That was before we had to use fuel cells. For fuel tanks I think gas welding is the best way but I did not do that on my 4 place Bearhawk, mainly because I have not done any gas aluminum welding in decades.

                  I think that gas welding is the best place to start And when I teach people to weld I start them with gas.

                  As much welding as I have done, I do not use MIG welding. Years ago, I spend a lot of money buying good MIG equipment and as hard as I tried, I never got to the point that I was satisfied with my MIG welds. I also never had anyone working for me who was any better with a MIG gun than I was. What bothers me about MIG welding is the shape of the weld fillet and the edge of the weld in relation to the base material. It always looks like a perfect place for a crack. When I went to all TIG welding on my race car frames, the issues with cracked welds almost became non existent.

                  One thing about welding race car parts, you get to see how you work holds up in destructive testing. Many of my suspension components are made from .049 thick 4130 airfoil tubing.

                  This is my welding experience. I may not be worth the time it takes you to read this rant. But this is why I am dubious about MIG welding and why I am not persuaded by anyone's argument in favor of MIG welding on thin wall tubing such as we use in out air-frames.
                  Not that I’m going to... but before the skill is lost forever...
                  how did you go about gas welding thin aluminum

                  I’ve heard whispers of this being done here and there online but no real discription of the process...

                  What did the finish weld look like ... did you used to do it with just the oxygen and acetylene?... type of rod...did you do it in small sections...ect ...

                  maybe it’s just me... but I’m fascinated by old school methods...


                  Last edited by way_up_north; 05-05-2021, 02:59 PM.

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                  • #43
                    way_up_north look at this website. The guy does some really cool work with aluminum. He gas welds aluminum and sells instructional videos. I believe he also teaches a class. I get lost looking at all the beautiful work he does.
                    Coming Soon
                    https://www.tinmantech.com/
                    Last edited by Chris Werner; 05-05-2021, 03:37 PM. Reason: Forgot link
                    Model B quick build started 2021
                    • Likes 1

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                    • #44
                      Tinman prefers using Hydrogen instead of Acetylene for welding aluminum.
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                      • #45
                        Hydrogen and Oxygen is the preferred welding gas combination. Acetylene leaves the weld looking a tiny bit dirty.

                        I have a pair of Burt Weld lenses. These lenses eliminate the color red when you look at the weld flame. Cobalt Blue lenses will work but not nearly as well. I do not know what Tinman is selling for lenses. Also you need a flux and the Tinman should have that as well.

                        The weld on the side that you weld, will look very similar to what you get when you TIG weld aluminum but the back side will look almost the same and is infinitely cleaner and smoother that with TIG. Also the weld is annealed and can be worked very easily, like hammer shaping. The annealed area is fairly wide because of the slower heating and cooling with the gas welding.

                        Most of the gas aluminum welding I have done is with 3003 aluminum alloy. Mainly because I was going to shape the part after I welded it.
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