CNC Router - Milling 4130

[Craig Van Sickle]

I recently finished a 48"x48" CNC build and ventured into 4130 with some success. Here's a quick video, thought you guys might enjoy. Cutting LSA brake plates:

 

[whee]

That’s way cool!

I’ve got some parts I need drawn up in SolidWorks. I’ll send you the files.

 

[Craig Van Sickle]

That’s way cool!

I’ve got some parts I need drawn up in SolidWorks. I’ll send you the files.

Solidworks... A sore point with me. So I ordered a very nice laptop that had hardware certified for Solidworks. Spent the summer after work digging in and loving the EAA's free access. Truly incredible simulation for structures and air flow. I had all kinds of tubing structures drawn, simulated crashes, and loading up gear legs. It was nerd nirvana. Then Solidworks pulled that benefit. Now it's some watered down Maker version with no simulation.

 

[schu]

What are you running for the cnc router/mill? I'd like to dive into this world as there are always parts I want to make, but I'm not sure I want another cheap Chinese tool, American made mills are way expensive unless you get old used stuff, but then it's hard to understand how warn out it is unless you can make a few cuts and look for taper or repeatability issues, and even then it might be poor setup, so it's hard to figure out.

I've been thinking about buy a precision matthews. I'd be interested in your thoughts.

As for gear legs, I could probably make up jig pretty fast since I don't have the engine on right now, but I'm not sure they would fit your airplane Jon as you are scratch build.

I plan on running 31's all of the time anyway, so I'm not as convinced on the longer legs.

 

[Craig Van Sickle]

What are you running for the cnc router/mill? I'd like to dive into this world as there are always parts I want to make, but I'm not sure I want another cheap Chinese tool, American made mills are way expensive unless you get old used stuff, but then it's hard to understand how warn out it is unless you can make a few cuts and look for taper or repeatability issues, and even then it might be poor setup, so it's hard to figure out.

I've been thinking about buy a precision matthews. I'd be interested in your thoughts.

As for gear legs, I could probably make up jig pretty fast since I don't have the engine on right now, but I'm not sure they would fit your airplane Jon as you are scratch build.

I plan on running 31's all of the time anyway, so I'm not as convinced on the longer legs.

It is a C4N4848 basic mechanical kit from cnc4newbie.com I welded an aluminum rolling base with removable baltic birch panels. Then designed and wired the electrical. 48v Closed loop hybrid steppers. Mach 4. AXBBE controller. Misting coolant system.

It is much less rigid than a milling machine and not usually intended for steel. I tried it on a whim and it works very well with the correct bits and settings.

This is my second machine and I really enjoyed the build. Already looking forward to building a larger and more capable machine down the road.

There's a lot out there depending on your needs. This allows me to do wood, plastic, aluminum, and steel. I'll be adding a laser as well for balsa and engraving.

 

[triumphantduke]

check out DUET control boards and MOSQUITO Hot Ends - a cool $ setup for FAB - is to build a 3d printer/CNC combo with ability to print ~450 deg C plastics("aerospace grade"). you can do printing or CNC(aluminum), and also print "melted" parts for excellent layer adhesion then have the cnc router follow up to remove the melted bits and clean up the surfaces. SO if you are going to build something, why not leave the door open for multi-purpose. I started with the 3d printing part, and later want to build another frame and upgrade to add cnc capability

 

[triumphantduke]

yup...stinks, now I'm trying to use FreeCAD - haven't gotten to the fluid or FEM portions yet but they do have modules for that too

 

[schu]

That's impressive that you are getting away with that cutting 41310. Nice work.

Part of me wants to just go straight for a mill, because I can get something with a 24x8 bed pretty easily that's far more rigid for $2500 since it's only a 275lb machine, and the only thing I would be missing is the size, and I'm not sure I've needed to cut a part larger than that.

As for the 3d printer, I already have a prusa mk3s+, I'm curious what you mean by "aerospace grade" plastics. I printed some pulley guards out of PETG and they seem very strong and I don't think there will be any issues with them.

As for the laser cutter, unless it can cut aluminum it doesn't do much for me.

Perhaps the best setup for me would be a much heavier steel router that doubles as a plasma cutter table, but I would have to make some way to swap out the bed, and I'd probably have to level it each time I swap.

 

[triumphantduke]

Prusa's are pretty sweet.

here's a quick look:
https://markforged.com/resources/le...how-do-3d-printers-work/3d-printing-materials

"aerospace" meaning ULTEM type plastics, or nylon, polycarbonate- when i was at an air depot, they were pretty strict on what type of plastics to print for parts that fly. What you use just depends on where its going to be placed, temp of environment, UV, etc.

 

[Craig Van Sickle]

That's impressive that you are getting away with that cutting 41310. Nice work.

Part of me wants to just go straight for a mill, because I can get something with a 24x8 bed pretty easily that's far more rigid for $2500 since it's only a 275lb machine, and the only thing I would be missing is the size, and I'm not sure I've needed to cut a part larger than that.

As for the 3d printer, I already have a prusa mk3s+, I'm curious what you mean by "aerospace grade" plastics. I printed some pulley guards out of PETG and they seem very strong and I don't think there will be any issues with them.

As for the laser cutter, unless it can cut aluminum it doesn't do much for me.

Perhaps the best setup for me would be a much heavier steel router that doubles as a plasma cutter table, but I would have to make some way to swap out the bed, and I'd probably have to level it each time I swap.

I think that's a great path to take with the mill. I'm looking forward to adding a number of CNC tools to the collection as more room becomes available. The CNC router will allow me to drill/cut the vast majority of wing skins/parts. I cut quite a bit for aluminum fabrication.

Here's an ATV rack I cut out and motor mount/gear/vortex generators for this custom RC build. Those clean, machined edges assemble and weld great with no prep. It also works well for very small aluminum parts.

Best of luck on your selection, I've really enjoyed learning and adding CNC to my builds.

 

[whee]

I agree. I didn't do anything with Solidworks last year and didn't realize there was a change in the EAA access till after I paid the unexpected $50 bucks for access. At my skill level I can't tell a difference in functionality but I haven't done any simulations since college. The interface is kicking my butt though, I can't find anything without using the search command.

 

[Craig Van Sickle]

Fusion 360 has some very good milling integration and simulations for testing machined/welded assemblies. Moi3D is my go to for most things with how simple and fast it is. I do miss the CFD from Solidworks!

 

[schu]

Do you have a positioner or are you just a much better tig welder than me?

I have done some custom RC machining as well. I built a set of swash followers for a 700 size heli. It's been a while since I've flown though, bearhawk building is #1 priority right now as I'm getting way closer to be done done.

 

[Craig Van Sickle]

Just free hand resting on the work with a TIG finger. Bench welding seems much easier after welding a couple airframes!

 

[Sir Newton]

You & I could be beer drinking buddies!

 

[Sir Newton]

I can see, we could really build some cool stuff if put our heads together.

 

[spinningwrench]

For those looking for a new CNC milling machine capable of heavy cutting I can't say enough good things about my Tormach 770 mill. I have been running it probably 10 years now with no problems. A very precise, robust machine as solid as a Bridgeport. I'm looking at getting a 3D printer now as I really want to do a better job of the air intake on my Patrol build.

 

[Craig Van Sickle]

appreciate the recommendation!

 

[Craig Van Sickle]

Fellow creative shop nerd?

 

[spinningwrench]

We seem to recently have a solid group of builders that are CNC and CAD oriented. Great to share build info and ideas.

 

[robcaldwell]

I recently ordered an Avid CNC PRO4896 https://www.avidcnc.com/.

Mine will have the 4HP router for woodworking and furniture making for our new home. It can also cut AL and Nylon.

There is also a water table option for precision plasma cutting as well.

For designing and modeling, I am using Fusion 360 which I find more robust and easier to use (more intuitive).

 

[Craig Van Sickle]

I recently ordered an Avid CNC PRO4896 https://www.avidcnc.com/.

Mine will have the 4HP router for woodworking and furniture making for our new home. It can also cut AL and Nylon.

There is also a water table option for precision plasma cutting as well.

For designing and modeling, I am using Fusion 360 which I find more robust and easier to use (more intuitive).

Excellent. You will love the capability it brings. Is this your first machine?

Opening up my brake flange slightly for a larger tubing size: I usually have a vac foot pulling chips but removed it for the video. I'll also be adding a second and improved misting wands.

 

[robcaldwell]

Excellent. You will love the capability it brings. Is this your first machine?

Yes, this will be my first CNC machine.

I really enjoy assembly. Like I did with my Bearhawk kit. CNC makes the majority of work primarily about assembly. Top that with insane precision, suits me just fine.

 

[Craig Van Sickle]

Yes, this will be my first CNC machine.

I really enjoy assembly. Like I did with my Bearhawk kit. CNC makes the majority of work primarily about assembly. Top that with insane precision, suits me just fine.

You will love it. I'll often work through my design/cut files in the evening after the house has gone to bed. It's probably one of my favorite things to kick back with the laptop, cup of coffee, and some Netlfix with a quiet house. The next day when I hit the shop everything is ready to go. It feels like magic to see the things you drew the night before appearing out of the raw material.

If you like assembly, something that I'll often do is design interlocking parts and cut the slots just the right tolerance to slide in with a tap and hold. Sometimes hit it with a pinner and glue, screws if I want to take it apart later. Those joints that nest are very strong even with minimal screws to suck them up tight.

HDPE plastic cuts very nicely and is extremely useful for that space between wood and metal. I cut these RC skis out of 1" HDPE/aluminum. They have an integrated slot that sets the angle limits and spring to keep them tip up in flight without using cables.

 

[robcaldwell]

Incredible!

 

[Craig Van Sickle]

It's a good thing my wife thinks cutting airplane parts is a fun date Elevator center hinge.

 

[triumphantduke]

it has begun... sized and spec'd out a modification of this CNC router: https://forum.v1engineering.com/t/lo...-upgrade/18266 - I like it because it seems "accessible" to start and I can convert plastic bits to metal or make improvements once its done if needed.. I'll be harvesting my Duet 3 board from my 3d printer and modify the design a little to have the 3d printer nozzle on the carriage as well.. which will be its own challenge for the speed - weight - strength envelope (3d printing goals seem to be fast, strong, light - CNC looks like they are heavy for rigidity and run slower)
time to do some modeling for my personal tweaks - and we'll see what happens!

for reference..it would help me out a lot in the design to learn from your experience. Like planes its all about balancing the trade offs for what you want.
-what was the rated holding torque for your stepper motors?
-spindle power? to get the 4130 abilities
-if you could do it again what would you tweak for your CNC design
-your biggest perceived challenge to overcome? stiffness/chatter/speed/repeatability/tolerances?

 

[Craig Van Sickle]

it has begun... sized and spec'd out a modification of this CNC router: https://forum.v1engineering.com/t/lo...-upgrade/18266 - I like it because it seems "accessible" to start and I can convert plastic bits to metal or make improvements once its done if needed.. I'll be harvesting my Duet 3 board from my 3d printer and modify the design a little to have the 3d printer nozzle on the carriage as well.. which will be its own challenge for the speed - weight - strength envelope (3d printing goals seem to be fast, strong, light - CNC looks like they are heavy for rigidity and run slower)
time to do some modeling for my personal tweaks - and we'll see what happens!

for reference..it would help me out a lot in the design to learn from your experience. Like planes its all about balancing the trade offs for what you want.
-what was the rated holding torque for your stepper motors?
-spindle power? to get the 4130 abilities
-if you could do it again what would you tweak for your CNC design
-your biggest perceived challenge to overcome? stiffness/chatter/speed/repeatability/tolerances?

425oz holding
https://www.automationtechnologiesin...-1000-kl-6060d
2.2kw spindle
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B077BYVT56...ing=UTF8&psc=1

For the money, I'm completely happy with my build and wouldn't change anything. I had zero expectations to cut 4130 steel and am still shocked at how well it works. I spent more time than most on the setup and this is what paid off for cutting steel.

Chase every bit of backlash out possible then measure and enter that in your software for compensation. In my case the couplers needed an upgrade. With some lead screw bearing improvements and better couplers I was able to get backlash down to .001". Get it as square and straight as possible. I chased some very slight arcs from my linear rails to get them extremely close.

Even with the 50"x50" work area I've had no issues with chatter/stiffness/repeatability and that's probably due to all of the setup. I'm a huge fan of closed loop steppers after using them, and all my machines from here out will use them or servos.

Zero cleanup for these cut edges. Still shocked at this little 1/8" lakeshore carbide plowing through the 4130 and leaving this finish. No cleanup pass. These machined edges weld so nice.

 

[triumphantduke]

nice, thank you for that!

ok that makes give me a warm fuzzy for the steppers I chose, the 425oz nema 23s. I did order a 3kw spindle, so that'll be interesting to see what that and the frame influences in the end.

What wattage is your power supply for steppers + board? ...assuming you have one for the spindle and another for the steppers and board...

 

[Craig Van Sickle]

nice, thank you for that!

ok that makes give me a warm fuzzy for the steppers I chose, the 425oz nema 23s. I did order a 3kw spindle, so that'll be interesting to see what that and the frame influences in the end.

What wattage is your power supply for steppers + board? ...assuming you have one for the spindle and another for the steppers and board...

48vdc to the steppers. Board runs on 24vdc and 5vdc. Spindle is 220v
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B077KS9LRY/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_title?ie=UTF8&psc=1

 

[Morto]

Bit late probably Craig but after I ran in to the same issue I wound up going to Fusion 360 through my son's student access. Not sure if that is an option?