What are these for??

[James]

Right! I see now - I didn't plan on having lap sashes, so I didn't think of that.
I had a nagging suspicion it was a bit of a silly question... and it was! :-)

Thanks again,
James

[Nev]

I too was hoping not to use separate lap belts and simply use car seat belts. The only issue is keeping the lap belt secure during turbulence etc. Has anyone done this ? Is there a way to secure the lap belt without having two separate belts ? The traditional way is to have a lap belt, with a separate shoulder belt that latches near the buckle, but there must be a better way to do this while still keeping it safe and functional.

[JimParker256]

Personally, I would NOT go the route of using an automotive-style "Z-belt". You can't really get them tight enough for turbulence. Personally, even with separate lap belts & shoulder harnesses, I've never found my seat belts to bee "too tight" when flying in turbulence. They are always "just barely tight enough" even if I crank them down as tight as I can. I cannot imagine being able to get comfortable with the automotive belts.

Also, I like to keep the lap belts tightened down at all times, but leave just enough slack in the shoulder harness so I can reach the far side of the cockpit. Then if I get into rough air, I can crank them tight. Of course, if you have inertia reel shoulder harnesses, you don't need to worry about all that...

[Nev]

JimParker256 Thanks, I always appreciate your input and views. Like you, I could never get the lap belt tight enough in turbulence, but I disliked full shoulder harnesses even when on inertia reels. My idea is to have an automotive style belt, with a mechanism that allows the lap section to be locked in tension.

Any other ideas appreciated, even if they are “outside the box” or controversial.

[Battson]

I too was hoping not to use separate lap belts and simply use car seat belts. The only issue is keeping the lap belt secure during turbulence etc. Has anyone done this ? Is there a way to secure the lap belt without having two separate belts ? The traditional way is to have a lap belt, with a separate shoulder belt that latches near the buckle, but there must be a better way to do this while still keeping it safe and functional.

I started out flying with car-type belts - they are simply not acceptable in what I would call 'real' turbulence.
They also hinder your ability to reach the flaps in turbulence.

[Nev]

They also hinder your ability to reach the flaps in turbulence.

Is this because the inertial reel keeps locking so you can’t lean forward? If so, how did you solve it?

[Nev]

Has anyone installed a locking latch-plate such as here ? (Scroll halfway down the page)

Looks to installed on some cars so the seat belts can be used to attach a child seat without slipping.

93E93D83-F104-4EC9-BD7A-2A8422910D9B.jpeg

[Battson]

Is this because the inertial reel keeps locking so you can’t lean forward? If so, how did you solve it?

If you have a lap belt keeping you still, so your body weight isn't bouncing against the belt, then the inertia reel doesn't lock.
I also removed the "secondary lock" from my inertia reel, the secondary lock activates if the vehicle isn't level - removed for obvious reasons.

I think there is definitely a better way, it just needs to be found.
Technam used to install car type seat-belt plugs, maybe they still do.
However the research shows that passengers who are panicking will just pull at their seat belt buckle frantically. I have seen this first-hand in car accidents. Passengers often fail to operate a push-button seat belt and remain trapped. Hence why airlines retain the old style "lift to open" seat belt buckles, and brief you on it every flight.

[Nev]

If you have a lap belt keeping you still, so your body weight isn't bouncing against the belt, then the inertia reel doesn't lock.

Which type of inertia reel are you using? I learned today that there are two main types of emergency locking mechanisms for the inertia reel.

[Bcone1381]

Is there a way to secure the lap belt without having two separate belts ? The traditional way is to have a lap belt, with a separate shoulder belt that latches near the buckle, but there must be a better way to do this while still keeping it safe and functional.

The aircraft I fly at work has the Amsafe five point system with an inertial reel. Are you familiar with them? I think it is designed for what you describe. We always unlatch the shoulder harnesses after every takeoff. You don't want it on during a cruise, and you want them to be easy to re-install back into the latch for landing even with the inertial reel.

I am installing it in my Patrol. It has 5 belts attaching to a center latch device. The five points are L & R lap belt, a L & R shoulder harness and a center belt between legs I'll call a groin strap. I consider the groin strap an essential part of any good harness because it keeps the lap belts secure around the pelvic bones and keeps the center latch device from being pulled away from the belt and up towards the sternum by the shoulder straps in an accident.

To keep things simple and light, I am not installing the inertial reel, I'm just doing simple shoulder harness with the 5 point center latch device. The inertial reel is on my shelf. It can be installed in any orientation. If you go BANG and your upper body thrust forward at a fast rate, the inertial reel will lock due to the speed at which the reel's spool spins. This is the only thing that activates my inertial reels locking mechanism. The pressure it places on the body is light in normal use. Its a good design. But you still don't want to wear the shoulder harness for hours at a time.

Schroth is another very good product used I know in Race cars. I believe racing regulations requiring replacement at frequent intervals makes them available at a good price on eBay during the winter. Buy one, get all the hardware for a value price, fabricate a pattern specific for your aircraft then send it out for rewebbing, or buy the webbing and have a local upholstery shop sew it up using proper thread.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/AmSafe-5-Point-Aircraft-Harness-Seatbelt-1180003-430-431-100/164038992211?hash=item26317c6153:g:bBMAAOSwWxxeJJuu

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Schroth-4-02-4-Point-Harness-Seatbelt-with-Crotch-strap-Military-Aviation-Racing/124287043289?hash=item1cf015c6d9:g:0xIAAOSw~U1fKwH2

[Nev]

Thanks Brooks. Yep familiar with AmSafe. They are pretty much the gold standard and being able to unlock the should straps is a nice feature. Although it’s a bit more than what I’m looking for in my Bearhawk though both in weight and complexity, the inertia reel is probably of the type we need to be looking for though I think, activated by deceleration. Good heads up on the Schroeder eBay specials thanks.

[robcaldwell]

Jon Wheeler recommended, and I purchased these. https://www.ebay.com/itm/Schroth-Mil...item3f5e2d49e8

[Nev]

Those look pretty good Rob.

[robcaldwell]

Add the link to your "watch list" as he will probably come back with more inventory soon. Even though he is asking $119 each, I made an offer of $90 each for two sets and he accepted my offer. So two sets for $180 was a helluva deal!

[schu]

I'm the one that recommended them to Jon. I think they are the way to go on the Bearhawk.

[Battson]

Which type of inertia reel are you using? I learned today that there are two main types of emergency locking mechanisms for the inertia reel.

The same kind that you'd find in a car. Modified as described above.

[Nev]

Apparently certain cars (Chrysler, Dodge, Jeep) have a locking latch, what you’d find on a lap belt only design so that the length of the lap belt can be adjusted while undone, but once it’s plugged in the angle prevents further adjustment.

The AmSafe belts need to be locked manually although I never did, even in turbulence as the lap belt did the job. The lock was only really used by other crew to pranks.....

So I’m wondering if the locking latch from a lap belt were combined with the Emergency Locking Retractor (shoulder belt that a lot of aircraft have) if it might keep people seated during turbulence, yet still allow upper body movement to reach flaps etc, whilst providing protection during rapid deceleration.

[Battson]

My only comment - you don't always see turbulence coming

[James]

Good discussion - and thanks to the guy who re-launched this old thread!!

I've got a 5-point harness with a centre rotary release mechanism, a bit like the link above. Any thoughts on how to secure the crotch piece to the seat frame? At the moment, I'll just put a webbing loop back under the seat pan to the rear tube of the seat frame... but if anyone's actually installed this type of harness, can you send us a pic?

Thanks,

James

[Bcone1381]

The AmSafe belts need to be locked manually although I never did, even in turbulence as the lap belt did the job. The lock was only really used by other crew to pranks.....

So I’m wondering if the locking latch from a lap belt were combined with the Emergency Locking Retractor (shoulder belt that a lot of aircraft have) if it might keep people seated during turbulence, yet still allow upper body movement to reach flaps etc, whilst providing protection during rapid deceleration.

The Amsafe inertial reel (that I'm experienced with) has a locking mechanism that jokesters indeed use. It can and should be used when ditching. But It is not the sole locking mechanism, rather its the secondary of two methods to lock the the reel. The primary locking mechanism is activated when the webbing is quickly pulled from the reel. If you jerk the shoulder harness, it locks. Afaik, Everyone leaves that lock off all the time on every flight, but we know where its located if we ever need it. It allows for movement, and provides the protection you seek.