Time to scratch build a 4 place bearhawk

[AKMac]

Hello everyone.

I was just wondering if someone could provide some insight into scratch building a bearhawk.

A little about myself. I have an degree in aviation, along with a instrument, complex, high performance, and about 13 hours in a supercub for my tailwheel signoff. While I've taken a break from aviation as a career choice, my wife and I have decided that we would like a project that would ultimately get us into flying. I currently own an oil inspection company and have a pretty good collection of tools that I've amassed over the years. While I may not have EVERYTHING required to build a bearhawk, I do believe I have the welding skills, room, and knowledge to tackle such a project.

What does concern me, is the amount of time required to scratch build a bearhawk. I can't seem to get a solid answer on the hours required. I have read everything form 2,000 hours, to 20,000 man hours (no joke). My wife and I can dedicate about 500 hours a year (1,000 man hours) between the two of us. What I don't want, is to lose interest as many do, or to have the project take 10 years.

I would consider a Cessna 180 (scared of parts prices) or a Maule (scared of ground handling stories). The quickbuild kit, while very nice, is more than the cost of an older Maule, and almost the cost of a C-180. I could easily see myself spending over $100k to complete a quickbuild

Anyways, any thoughts are appreciated!

[Chris In Milwaukee]

The shortest amount of time I've seen a scratch-built BH4 manufactured is 4 years. That's Eric Newton's plane. Several examples have gone to 10 years. Others are still going, some in between. I'm shooting for 5-7 years, myself. Perhaps other who are flying scratch-built aircraft will chime in with their completions.

~Chris

[whee]

The guy I bought my project from had spent 10yrs on it. He had the wings 90% done and the fuselage basic frame welded. I've been working on it a little over a year and hope to have it flying this coming winter.

If I were starting from nothing I'd buy QB wings and the fuselage tubing kit and I think I could have a flying plane in 2 years. That's with two people working a couple hours each night and part of one day on the weekends.

[jaredyates]

Welcome! Think of a sliding scale between spending money and spending time. If you buy a flying airplane, that puts you at one extreme. If you buy raw materials, that puts you at the other end. The rest is a continuum. Your question doesn't yield consistent answers because there are too many unknowns. It's sort of like asking how much you should expect to spend on a car. How efficiently will you spend your time while in the shop? Will you count research time as Russ did or will you count only shop time? Will you be open to input about how best to do things, and how much time will you spend hunting that information down? Will you make the few most time consuming parts, or will you buy them from the factory? Will you buy an item (like an alternator for example) ready to bolt on or will you fab your own brackets? These are just some of the factors that wil impact build time.

[Battson]

In terms of building hours, for a first-time builder (the following need not apply to a licensed aircraft engineer):

Personally I think it's pretty well proven and accepted that 2000 hrs is not enough shop time to finish a scratch-build.
I have been told that 2000 hours is probably enough time to finish a set of wings, or the fuselage, for an average builder with no prior experience. Remember that for many exemplars like Eric N., that was not their first build.

Personally, the only reason I believe one should opt to scratch-build, is for the pure enjoyment of building something you can then fly at the end. It is a long tortuous road if all you want is a functional aircraft, and have no interest in building for the sake of building. So, to enjoy building, you need to take your time and go at your own speed. That, combine with the sheer volume of work, is what I believe usually leads to the quintessential 10 year project lifespan.

If your top priority is to fly your own Bearhawk, then logically the best use of time is to work overtime and save money for a QB kitset. Of course, this is not a logical process by any stretch of the imagination... But my point is, starting a scratch-building project now might be a longer road to flying; when compared to saving aggressively for 6-12 months and buying a QB kitset - overall, waiting to get started is almost certainly the faster option. They call it a "quick build" kitset for a good reason!

I got talked out of a scratch-build this time four years ago, back when I was in your shoes. Now here I am today, and I've been flying my QB kitset for the last two years. I am certain I would still be scratch-building today (or have given up) had I gone the other route. I am not saying scratch-building is a bad idea for everyone, I am saying my personal top priority was to get flying ASAP!

Go certified you say?

Yes, a well-used C180 can be had for twice the price of a kitset, albeit probably in poor shape. However, that cheap C180 will probably cost you $$,$$$ to get ship-shape, and about the same each year to maintain. Cessna sells a $400 washer, $1400 sun visor, etc. That's a lot of AVGAS, and you still have a used plane with old paint, hidden corrosion, mid-time engine + prop, stone-age technology in the panel, and zero freedom to customise. As one interested in aircraft, you will probably want to customise it in time?

Yes, the Maule will be cheaper than the Cessna. They are a versatile plane too. However, you are still comparing an old used Maule and all it's incumbent hidden problems, with a brand-new Bearhawk (a vastly superior airplane!), which is custom built by you to your own specs, and you retain the freedom to do whatever you like in terms of maintenance. That brand new thing is important. Not to mention to kudos and knowledge which you will inevitably acquire during the build, and your ability to take care of the Bearhawk yourself. That expertise is priceless. A new, custom built Maule would cost you upwards of 5 times the cost of a Bearhawk, with stone-age vintage instruments. To add insult to injury, you are still stuck with a certified aircraft which you can't touch, and costs a lot more to maintain than a homebuilt.

There's another opinion for you, hope you have fun making your choice. Thanks for letting us be part of it!

[AKMac]

Thank you for the input gentleman.

I guess this is somewhat of a loaded question! I suppose I should have just asked what is the quickest a scratch bearhawk has been finished (which was answered by Chris) just so I could get an idea. I would also imagine that the gentleman who built one in four years also had a bunch of free time.

I do like the idea of buying a tubing kit and then getting QB wings. I have read a few blogs and it seem most guys roll through the fuse structure relatively quickly, and I think that it would be fun. My only concern would be if my home built fuselage would fit the nice jig built QB wings!

I hear you on the certified planes! It's tempting for me to go that route for instant gratification, but when I think about paying to have someone doing maintenance, ridiculous factory parts prices, and my limited avionics options, my mouth sours. I just see some of the Maule prices hovering around $40k and think to myself that is the same cost of a QB kit. I know it's apples to oranges comparing a new bearhawk to a most likely ratty Maule, but it's hard not to look at it financially too.

Thank you for everyone's opinions!

[lsa140]

Great thoughts. I'm currently scratch building the LSA, and have not yet completed a flying aircraft, so I'll defer to those who have for better advice.

With that said, here is my current thinking:

If you simply love flying, buy certified. If you want more freedom to customize the airplane to your needs, buy a well built experimental. If you enjoy working with your hands, have a lot of time/patience, and enjoy seeing how things go together, build a kit. I would only recommend scratch building to someone who meets all of the previous qualifications, and 1. Loves fabrication as much flying. 2. Enjoys the process of assimilating a lot of new skills and information. It is easy to spend at least one hour of research/education for every hour of of actual building when using plans.

Hope this helps, good luck!

[Battson]

It is easy to spend at least one hour of research/education for every hour of of actual building when using plans.

Ain't that the truth!

[JimParker256]

And sometimes the same is true when you're building from a QB kit... If I'm not 100% sure, I stop and think about it. Then if I haven't figured it out, I email Mark for advice. He's incredibly patient... Wish we had an assembly manual for the Patrol, like the one for the 4-place. Yeah, it's *just like the 4-place*, except where it's not. I seem to find a lot of *not alike* places to have questions about... But this is half the fun of building - figuring it out, even when you have to ask for help.

[Chris In Milwaukee]

Another consideration, check with your CFO. Mine certainly prefers the cash outlay and its associated frequency of a scratch build.

Just another viewpoint!

[Bdflies]

Warning! Warning Will Robinson!! Never intentionally admit, to the CFO, how much this project will cost! Always maintain several bank accounts, to keep the steady bleed, confusing. Even when caught - with undeniable evidence of a major purchase, deny it! Remember: it's easier to get forgiveness, than permission!
Or, keep in mind the immortal words, uttered by my CFO (when I told her that I was buying a project); "Payback's a bitch." 😳

[marcusofcotton]

...My only concern would be if my home built fuselage would fit the nice jig built QB wings!...

No worries there, have the wings on hand when building the fuselage, make it to fit them.

[Deftone]

When going the scratch built route remember that you also have the option of buying individual parts of the kits that can save a lot of time. For example you may not want to buy the quick build wings, but can buy the ribs and spars pre-formed. Saves you a lot of time and money but still leaves a Lot for you to do.