Bearhawk Aircraft Bearhawk Tailwheels LLC Eric Newton's Builder Manuals Bearhawk Plans Bearhawk Store

Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Oratex nightmare

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • #31
    Originally posted by Gerhard Rieger View Post
    suppliers must help you out there with what match up.
    I don't think suppliers "must" do anything. They should be willing to work with you if you give them the opportunity, that's just good business. I'm amazed they bought the OP's paint, especially after how it all went down, that goes above and beyond IMO. Also from the photos it looked like a white plane to me, but not seeing in person what do I know.
    Dave B.

    Comment


    • Gerhard Rieger
      Gerhard Rieger commented
      Editing a comment
      OK, I changed it to should, The point I wanted to make is that both sides must be willing to work together. Enjoy!!

  • #32
    Seems like another not so happy Oratex Customer. Not advertising for Kitfox here, by no means, but this video just came out yesterday and within 1 hour had 18000+ views. This is just to show you how quick good and bad, usually more so bad travels on the internet. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fuh5F779MOc Oratex comments are near the end if you want to skip the rest. My personal experience has been good, albeit a bit slow to get to the table. By the time they finally replied we've had it all "Stits'd up", ..old faithful has never failed me, ...YET! :-))

    Comment


    • AlabamaSlammer
      AlabamaSlammer commented
      Editing a comment
      Funny, those comments brought me back to this thread to find your post.

  • #33
    Truth of the matter is that the factory can't keep up and takes a holiday every week. Or so it seems. Lars and Paul with Better aircraft fabric are doing all they can to resolve my issues. They are sending me 3 different colors of paint at no charge. I agree that they could definitely be quicker but that might be a reflection of the factory's slow pace .

    Comment


    • Bcone1381
      Bcone1381 commented
      Editing a comment
      I am thankful for this thread.  The likelihood of me choosing Oratex for my Patrol is pretty high.  So, its helpful to understand how things work at Oratex, and this thread has adjusted my expectations for a future order.

  • #34
    Abe, while I have "no dog in this hunt" - since you are now much more OK with what Lars and Paul are doing to try and help you resolve the issues - you might consider changing the name of this thread or posting. It sounds like the "nightmare" might not be as apt a description of your experience now. I really don't care. Just a suggestion. Mark

    Comment


    • #35
      Becone, I would still use Oratex even after what we went through. Just keep in mind that nothing moves quickly with them. As long as your ok with that then it's a good quality product and Paul is eager to help. Lars is also eager and went above expectations to help resolve my matter. He has no control over the German factory and that's where things get slow.

      Mark, I will happily give an update on this set of events once I receive everything I am promised and I told Lars I would. I think it's a mistake to change the name as it was a nightmare to me. They helped to lessen the impact but its still not ideal set of circumstances. Plus I have a degree in marketing science and dramatic headlines get attention so maybe it will produce more business for them in the end when the readers find out the ending.

      Comment


      • JimParker256
        JimParker256 commented
        Editing a comment
        But how many will be "scared off" by reading the title and the first few posts? Just sayin'...

    • #36
      Jim , I understand what your thinking. I as a consumer would really appreciate a thread that's honest like this one has been.

      To be honest this still hasn't ended. They agreed to buy all my paint through Stewart's Systems. I sent them colors that I wanted and about a month later I recieved a sample of the colors. I didn't accept the color but only because it wasn't exactly what I wanted. Just today I recieved the second color samples and I accepted the colors. I'm still unsure when I'll get the actual paint but I have been busy scouting for hunting season so I haven't been to urgent. If I was still working on the plane as much as winter months then I would be more upset. It's been around 5 or 6 months since this mess started but I'm seeing the end in sight.

      As I said before, if your in a hurry then this may not be the fabric to use. If you have patience and want the best performance then Oratex is what you get.

      Comment


      • #37
        Interesting reading.
        I can't count the number of times I've flown off the handle at someone or some unjust situation, and then with a bit of reflection and an honest appeal to human good nature, I often end up becoming good friends with those same slighted people :-)

        Now, I'm keen on using Oratex, but I'm still in the planning stage. I can't speak for Lars' customer service, because more than a month ago I emailed him (and pretty much every email address on their website) about ordering their product, but got no reply. That may be, however, because they are not the Oratex reps for Australia.

        I've emailed the Germans recently, but got no reply either... essentially, I only need an answer to this one question:

        If I order "Oratex Cub Yellow", what is the Federal Standard Colour that best matches this fabric?
        http://ams-std-595-color.com/


        Hopefully there's someone out there who's ordered this product, and found a paint that goes with it, and that paint has a standard number.

        I've tried searching on the internet, but there's too many loose ends:
        On Aircraft Spruce, PTI have a colour chart with a colour named "Cub Yellow", #F13538
        It's visibly different from PolyFiber's Cub Yellow 146, or Superflite's Cub Yellow, etc etc
        And there was no set "Cub Yellow" originally: when you read the back story to Cub aircraft, the factory burnt down after the war or something, and after they rebuilt it, the colour of the planes that came out was never quite the same as before...

        (As an aside, I just have to say how awesome the AN/MIL-SPEC/FED Standard system is. You look up the number, and the colour you want arrives in the tin. Genius. :-)

        Ok, as always thanks for all the help

        James

        Comment


        • James
          James commented
          Editing a comment
          Yeah, I know Oratex sells the paint, but the guy I'm going to help paint my plane knows and likes PPG desothane type paints, which generally come mixed to Fed Standard colours. And he gets them with a trade discount for me :-)

        • haribole
          haribole commented
          Editing a comment
          Hi James, I used the Oratex Cub yellow and found a near match in an automotive paint. Let me look up that info and update you soon.

        • James
          James commented
          Editing a comment
          UPDATE - well, in case other people are thinking the same, this is what I've found out:

          Brian Gooden the Oratex rep here in Australia (brian@wheelerswings.com.au) was very helpful, and sent me a sample of what they call Cub Yellow. It's quite a rich, golden colour.
          Mark Hallam from PPG Australia (aerospace.customerservice@ppg.com) is happy to sell aerospace paint to individuals with deep pockets :-)
          The Fed Standard colour F13538 looks like a very close match.
          The CA9000 series of paints is top-grade (top cost) military, the CA8800 series is still aerospace grade gloss, buffable, and a bit cheaper.
          With a mix-ratio of 2:1:1 solids/activator/thinner, I've ordered a one quart kit (= one gallon of liquid), which should give me enough to do both wings and have some left over. The CT1 thinner is the slowest acting, should give me about 40 minutes before recoating. It's going over PPG Desoprime CA7233 primer, so that'll provide a yellow base straight up.

          The only question I need to answer now is should I treat my aluminium wing with something before I apply the primer?

          I'm scuffing it back with scotchbrite pads 7448 and gun cleaner, to remove the ink on the skins, and it should have enough etching for the paint to stick.

          Ok, I hope this info helps the next bloke. At least you have some part numbers you can google :-)

          James

      • #38
        I have been slowly starting the covering process. I like the Oratex material, but it is a bit tedious to apply. You also need space, as you need space for the piece you are covering, and a place to leave the fabric while the glue dries.

        Comment


        • zkelley2
          zkelley2 commented
          Editing a comment
          Have you ever worked with a legacy fabric?

        • svyolo
          svyolo commented
          Editing a comment
          Never used any of the legacy systems. I probably watched a dozen hours of videos on them. I covered a few dozen model airplanes 40 years ago with stuff similar to legacy systems, plus mylar and Coverite, which is a lot like Oratex.

          I believe it is more work to apply than legacy systems, but you don't have to paint it after your done. I think it is fewer man hours to apply and finish than legacy, but if you were paying somebody to do it, it might take a similar number of calendar days. There would be lots of wasted time if you were paying somebody. No problem for me I just work on something else while the glue is drying. But you need a big enough shop for that.

      • #39
        So I have the aircraft that started this post. The white fuselage is staying white. I cannot tell where the rolls dont match. Maybe you could at one time but certainly not now.

        I did paint the flaps and ailerons because I didn't want white control surfaces and a blue wing. Looked weird. The metal wing got aerothane and the fabric got polytone. That way they matched. Oratex does make and sell paint that matches their fabric. But for the white, polytone/aerothane insignia white(105) is a match.

        I've never had problems getting ahold of Lars, but I can also walk to his house. He actually came over and personally showed me how to put oratex on with my last airplane.

        Comment


        • #40
          I've covered 5 airplanes and done numerous repairs, all with the Poly Fiber system. While the end result is very satisfactory and holds up well (though all have been hangered) to think that there is product out there like Oratex that DOESN'T require the PITA multiple coating processes that any of the legacy coverings do, makes it a must for my next covering project.

          For those that haven't had the joy of a Legacy covering job: First off, the UPS or Fedex freight charges are high for shipping the required somewhat hazardous stuff. Then, imagine all the lacquer thinner needed to clean your spray equipment out each time, and you have to dispose of it all one way or another. Then the cleaning of the spray booth, each time, assuming you want a decent finish. ALL this has to take place in a temp controlled environment, which can present major challenges if your paint booth is in an outbuilding, during an Idaho winter! Sucking in huge amounts of cold winter air while trying to maintain a proper air temp for the paint to set up! I ended up putting in a radiant heated floor, got it real warm, and then had a time window before it cooled off too much, just a real hassle to deal with.

          Now imagine, you get the covering done, and you're DONE! With the legacy systems, you are less then half done at that point, a lot less.There would have to be some major issues with the O stuff, especially as I am not a show plane builder, I value lightness above all else, for me to not be a proponent of the stuff. I'll use it, and expect a learning curve, and be tolerant of any issues that arise, by remembering the fun of the alternative methods.

          Comment


          • svyolo
            svyolo commented
            Editing a comment
            I don't mind painting. It is the 5 hours of prep, for 1 hour of painting, that I never liked. Plus the mess made during the prep. Oratex was almost an instant "yes" for me.

          • svyolo
            svyolo commented
            Editing a comment
            I don't mind painting. It is the 5 hours of prep, for 1 hour of painting, that I never liked. Plus the mess made during the prep. Oratex was almost an instant "yes" for me.

          • zkelley2
            zkelley2 commented
            Editing a comment
            Repairs are so much easier to. I had to make a fuselage repair. I took the heat gun set it to the temp(that I can't remember off hand) that makes the glue unstick, peeled the fabric back, made the welds, applied new glue to the fabric and metal, ironed and gunned the fabric all back down. Shrunk to fit and done.

        • #41
          For sure, once everything was prepped and wiped down, and all the parts positioned just right in the paint booth, using purpose built jigs, (some which may be needed for any covering job, but for sure when spraying paint) and the paint booth was up to temp, and the paint mixed and strained (I forgot to mention earlier all the strainer funnels one will need, stir sticks also) the actual spraying was the easy part!

          Comment


          • #42
            Some great points supporting oratex as far as paint setup. But if I'm still going to paint the wings in the summertime with Stewart's... ?
            Perhaps the most compelling argument for me is weight, especially in keeping the cg forward.
            Mark
            Scratch building Patrol #275
            Hood River, OR

            Comment


            • zkelley2
              zkelley2 commented
              Editing a comment
              I painted the oratex flaps and ailerons to match the wings. Polytone goes on fine and matches the aerothane I put on the wings.

              It's still a 40lb or so weight savings over using the legacy fabrics.

            • Mark Goldberg
              Mark Goldberg commented
              Editing a comment
              I have told people that the weight savings from Oratex is 15 lbs or so. But that is a complete guess on my part. Do you really think it is more than that? Mark

            • zkelley2
              zkelley2 commented
              Editing a comment
              Mark, Oratex is just under 0.5oz per sq/ft. An amazingly light superflite job is 1oz per sq/ft and most homebuilt stitts/poly process runs 2.1oz per sq/ft.

              The bearhawk is roughly 35 yards iirc(Have to go look, it's was in the 30's) so... 315 sq ft. So up to ~31.5lb savings on the bearhawk. 10lbs if you get a professional lightweight job done.

              On an all fabric plane like a cub there's closer to 50 yards of fabric. 45lbs there.

          • #43
            All depends on the individual doing the spraying. I have heard 15 to as much as 30 for a Cub sized plane. Even at the lower number, shaving 15 pounds off is huge. I just sold my "regular" 29" Airstreaks after I found out ABW has "ultralight" 29" streaks. I saved 12 pounds,

            Comment


            • #44
              Mark;
              On a plane with fabric covered wing it is probably more. On the BH with a aluminum skinned wing, depends on how much paint you spray on the wings. Paint can be remarkably heavy, if you are not really good at it. The best guys at it do it for a living. They put on the minimum that is beautiful, because it is expensive and time consuming. None of that applies to me. I would apply more. until it looks good. I think a hack like me could easily add 70 + pounds of weight trying to get a beautiful finish. Catalyzed paint is mostly solids.

              On the BH all of the fabric is behind the CG. It not only is lighter, it helps keep the CG farther forward, if that is important to you. Some builders might want a mid CG so it flies nicer. Up to the individual.

              I used it because it was quicker, easier, and easier to repair. Like I said in my previous comment, the second time I use it, the weight savings will also weigh in my decision. I also saved 1-2 pounds per elevator in less counterweight, and at least 1 pound per aileron in counterweight as well.

              But when you look closely at fabric terminations, joints, etc, painted is prettier. Painted is also a little cheaper, if you don't add in your time and effort.

              To each his own.

              Comment

              Working...
              X