Intercom

[svyolo]

I didn't know the V16 or Garmin would interface with other brand EFIS's. I am probably going to go with Dynon or AFS EFIS. Haven't committed yet but I will very soon. Like at Sun n Fun.

[zkelley2]

The MGL V16 and/or N16 can be set to act as an SL30 or SL40 through an RS232 interface, and just about every EFIS out there right now talks well with the SL30/40.
It's one of the cheapest Nav/Coms on the market, with the VAL2k(also SL30/40) series just a bit less, but close to the same thing. I'm going to have one of those two in my plane depending on some answers from the manufactures.

[whee]

I didn't know the V16 or Garmin would interface with other brand EFIS's. I am probably going to go with Dynon or AFS EFIS. Haven't committed yet but I will very soon. Like at Sun n Fun.

The Gamin SL30/40 were so popular that most EFIS manufactures made it possible for their equipment to interface with them. Then came along other companies that made radios that were supposed to emulate the SL40/30, but check reviews before you buy because some didn't work very well. MGL made their new V16 radio so it can emulate the Garmin SL40/30, GTR200, GRT225, and GNC255. MGL also made their geek-speak coding stuff available to developers so they could integrate their radio with an EFIS and not have to have a control head.

I wanted a Nav/com which is the main reason I went with the V16, I can add the N16 later. If you not want/need a nav radio and are going with Dynon then I'd probably just use their radio.

[rgfuller]

How do you like your V16?

[Bcone1381]

Brooks, ....Tell us what you want and we'll help you spend your money

Thats awesome! I'll take the bate and open things up for discussion. I know you like Panel Threads, and its been a while since we've seen one.

I want something like the Cub Crafter's panel below. I want a to tune a radio from a designated radio head. I don't need a transponder head though. I like how the round radio heads look. I would probably install the intercom in the wing root or left side of the fuselage. A square Garmin GRT200 would drive the panel appearance, and I like the Trig look. But I keep an open mind.

I want to fly to alaska VFR. I like the EI CGR-30P engine monitor.

The MGL engine monitor has its advantages though....easiest to install I think with one wire penetrating the firewall. Now MGL's radio is out, and I liked what I saw. SO.....maybe throw in their efis/monitor display and intercom.

I will be on the fence about what I want until the test flight. I like simple. I also like proven products. I don't want to be trouble shooting instead of flying or wishing I had done something different. I am not sure if I would install a Garmin Area 660, or an iPad with Fore Flight. I will be using fuse blocks in stead of CB's, and they will be remote mounted.


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[svyolo]

I never looked at the EI CGR-30P, but I just did and it is kind of like a stand alone intercom. You can buy an EFIS with a bigger screen, that also is an engine monitor, for what the EI CGR cost. And, you get an EFIS as well.

A single EFIS and an IPAD are a tremendous about of info and SA for VFR flying, for not a lot of money. Remote transponder/ADSB/com and you get a very easy install, and very little weight. I might go with a separate com tuning head, but I will probably have 1200 hard coded into the transponder so I will probably only rarely change that.

[Bdflies]

I’ve been watching this thread with curiosity. I’m one of those who doesn’t see the point of a stand alone intercom, in a 2 place plane. I also support the concept of remoting everything possible. Not so sure about fuses, but that’s a different discussion. Brooks is obviously building a VFR Patrol, by not needing a transponder. I would argue that the weather and traffic that comes with an ADS-B transponder is worth the price.
I haven’t compared prices of all the components discussed, vs the price of a Garmin G3X, with the remote boxes, but I can say that the Garmin brings it all to you in 1 screen and it works really well! One screen puts all the info in front of you, with integrated control of everything. You set the parameters and it alerts you. Tap a screen and waypoint information is there. Tap again and the frequency is armed.
Oh yeah, the intercom works just fine in the Patrol, with no attention at all.

Even if all the various manufacturers components talk to each other, will the function be as seamless as a fully integrated system from one manufacturer?

Bill

[svyolo]

Remote mounting, or panel mount, of CB's or fuses is obviously a personal choice. But it is convention to never reset a popped CB in flight. You trouble shoot on the ground. There were a few procedures to pull a CB and reset it, to reset a system. But not resetting a CB that popped.

In my time in the air, when I had CB's pop in flight, over 50% of the time, it was a bad CB. It might have been more than 70%. I didn't keep track.

[zkelley2]

That has never been policy at any place I have ever worked.

[Bcone1381]

Hey Bill!

My mission requires a transponder, but don't need a tuning head installed on the panel. But I desire a Com radio tuning head on the panel because it gets touched so often. Today I like a Trig Transponder configured for ADSB.

Talk to me about "I don't see a need for a stand alone intercom in a two place." thought. I desire a quality intercom, and reports tell me Trig's internal intercom is not quite there for a noisy cockpit. So, its a $480 to $550 fix for a PS engineering high quality fix.

ADSB - OUT via the Trig transponder solution hardware is $2350.

ADSB - IN Traffic and WX using portables is a $500 solution plus an iPad, Fore Flight subscription, and iPad mount.

The CGR-30P is pricey at north of $4200. Now, I think I have everything you guys have with an EFIS. But if I'm doing local pattern work I can leave it home.

Lets say money is not an issue. The issue is Reliability, and good installation instructions and support. What will a Garmin, or Dynon give me that this doesn't have? Will it be easier to install?

One thing I just thought of that needs to go into the equation is Canada. If I fly to Gander, Goose, Ft. McKenzie will Fore Flight work?

Bob Nuckolls has a very good argument for remote mounted Fuse Blocks. But lets keep this thread focused on avionics. Another thread on fuse blocks would be a good discussion though.

[Bdflies]

Yeah, I kinda figured you’d have a transponder..... Back when radios were just radios, an intercom was mandatory. A 4 place intercom brings the ability to isolate those who don’t need to hear all the noise. The intercoms that are integral to our modern radios and efis systems are really good.
I guess my comfort in having everything from a single manufacturer drives much of my opinions. It all works with all the features playing together well. I’ve been helping a fellow Bearhawk builder do some avionics wiring. He’s got a 2 screen G3X and a TruTrack autopilot. We THINK it’ll have the functionality of the built in G3X system, but not sure. If not, who gets the call?
Brooks, are you going to do all the wiring, or will you buy your stuff with a harness? I think that’s gonna drive the question about ease of installation.
To the issue of reliability; I’m not a professional pilot, but I’ve been around a while. I’ve had vacuum pumps fail, radios that quit, magnetos fail and transponders that seem to work - except when ATC wants to ID the plane. On the other hand, my experience with G500 and G1000 systems has been flawless. I’m sure they do go black. I’ve not experienced it yet. Even so, I have a G5 as backup.. And then, there’s ForeFlight on the phone, which links, via Bluetooth to the G3X.

Bill

[JimParker256]

Like Bill (BDFlies) described in post #19 above, I started out thinking I would mount a single GRT Sport EX EFIS (well under $2000 configured as I want), with remote-mounted ADS-B Out transponder, and remote-mounted VHF COM radio (with integrated intercom, of course). Add the engine monitor box and sensors (about $1000), and that EFIS would also be my engine monitor. Add backup steam gauge altimeter and airspeed indicators, and I would have everything I need for VFR flight.

Then I started reading the AeroElectric Connection forum, and reading about how Bob Nuckols' designs electrical systems for reliability, eliminating single points of failure... And I realized that if the single EFIS went on the fritz, I would be unable to change frequencies on my comm, change squawk codes on the transponder, or have a clue what my engine was doing. In my mind, that is an unacceptable risk, no matter how reliable the EFIS system might be. Even something as simple as a bad software update on the EFIS could render your airplane useless until it was fixed...

So I started re-thinking those concepts. The EFIS could be backed up by a backup (smaller and less expensive) EFIS. The two EFIS systems would be updated at different times to prevent both getting a bad software update at the same time. So if I stayed with the GRT Sport EX as the primary EFIS, one of their Mini units (around $1300 configured as I would need) would be a complete (albeit smaller) backup for the Sport EX. (Dual Sport EX units would not be much more expensive, though they would take a bit more panel space.) The Mini (or 2nd Sport EX) could also be configured as the primary engine monitor display under normal circumstances, and revert to EFIS + engine monitor in failure mode.

That leaves the COM and TXP issues. But as I looked more closely, I found that the remote-mounted versions of TXP and COM radios are only slightly less expensive than their panel-mount versions, which would allow for manual tuning, while also allowing remote tuning via the EFIS. So now I'm leaning towards a dual-EFIS solution from GRT, with standard panel-mounted COM and Transponder.

Oh, and I also plan to follow Van's lead (as illustrated by his RV-12 design) and use blade-type automotive fuses instead of circuit-breakers, with switches inline with the fuses so I can control electrical power to every item in the plane.

[As a side note, about the only thing that I dislike about the GRT product series is that they have no way to remotely load flight plans from ForeFlight into the EFIS. It would have to be manually re-keyed. Not that it's such a big deal, but just an annoyance to me...]

Now back to building the Patrol...

[svyolo]

Jim, that was my primary reason for wanting a separate control head for my COM. If the Tspnr or EFIS fail, I can notify ATC over the radio. If the radio fails, I can notify ATC with the Tspnr. Or I can pull out my mobile phone and call the tower, and/or use Google maps to find my way home. LOL

[Ivan]

There is a good discussion about MGL on the tailwind yahoo group, as relates to ease of installation and support.

[whee]

Dammit, I just typed a long reply and somehow I made it disappear. I don't have time to redo it at present, Sorry Brooks.

You want a round head radio, here is the Vega head for the V16: Vega%20head.jpg

With only required steam gauges, a CGR-30P and a tablet you won't be missing anything significant but you will be carrying around extra weight. Steam gauges are heavy but I love how they look and miss them in my panel. When you tablet overheats, battery dies or otherwise becomes INOP will you have paper charts available?

When my tablet goes INOP I'll flip my EFIS from this screen:sport-ex-eng-0-446x268.png

to this one: sport-ex-pfd-map-eng-split-446x268.png

[TimTall]

Which EFIS system are you using?

[zkelley2]

That's the GRT Sport EX.

[svyolo]

Tablets mounted horizontally will overheat in direct sunlight. Mounted in a panel, or mostly vertically, should not. My company mounted them at a 45 degree angle. If the sun hit them directly, sometimes they overheated. But that is the only time. I would bet a Garmiine 3gx or Dynon HDX would also overheat if similarly mounted.

[zkelley2]

We use tablets as our chart source to fly around the world, and I've never seen one overheat. Just people forget to bring their charger or the company put ridiculous software on them the makes them not work.

[whee]

Tablets mounted horizontally will overheat in direct sunlight. Mounted in a panel, or mostly vertically, should not. My company mounted them at a 45 degree angle. If the sun hit them directly, sometimes they overheated. But that is the only time. I would bet a Garmiine 3gx or Dynon HDX would also overheat if similarly mounted.

Us GA guys aren’t flying around in air-conditioned cockpits😉 I agree that overheating is not likely and can be completely avoided. I’ve experienced it with both my phone and tablet but both occasions they were mounted to my leg, horizontal. Plenty of pireps exist in all kinds of mounting arrangements to know that it is something to consider and be aware of.

[zkelley2]

Us GA guys aren’t flying around in air-conditioned cockpits😉 I agree that overheating is not likely and can be completely avoided. I’ve experienced it with both my phone and tablet but both occasions they were mounted to my leg, horizontal. Plenty of pireps exist in all kinds of mounting arrangements to know that it is something to consider and be aware of.

Our cockpits routinely hit 100F sitting on the ground in warm places like say Dubai. The packs never keep up with just the APU running. In fact they dont always keep up with the engines running if we're carrying animals. I've seen it actually rain on the main deck from the water put into the air.

[Bcone1381]

Re: iPad Mount, The Guardian Avionics iPad mount installs in the instrument panel, has a cooling supply feature, and a 2.1A power supply integrated to run off ships power.

Re: Heavy Steam Gages....What is heavy on the Cub Crafter panel? A Winter airspeed indicator 3 1/8" in size weighs 7.2 oz. A United 3 1/8" altimeter is 13 oz.

Whee, sorry to miss out on the bulk of your post. Looking forward to hearing more.

Re: Garmin. The standard Patrol Instrument panel is not tall enough to accommodate a 10.6" G3X touch screen, you have to use the 7" screen. Thats ok... The standard Patrol panel accommodates the AFS and Dynon screen sizes well. Bill, we discussed your G3X touch 10.6" screen before, and I think your Patrol has a taller panel installed that accommodates that 10.6" screen. I agree with the possible issues mixing manufacturers equipment and don't want to do that. Tell me what your systems weighs.

GRT....I've visited the factory a couple times in Grand Rapids. That Sport EX is a nice unit...compact, lightweight. Tell me how easy it is to download engine data from the GRT EMS to an apple product. I suspect its not easy, and believe their system isn't compatible with Apple stuff.

[interstate al]

Thinking much like Jim Parker I chose a GRT Sport EX and the GRT Mini X ordered with the battery backup option. My com is a Garmin GTR 225 which has its own intercom. I also purchased the GRT engine monitor which will display primarily on the Mini-x. The juries still out on any steam gauges? Possibly 2-1/4" ASI and Alt.?

[svyolo]

That is a huge amount of capability and backup for VFR flying. I will probably just have 1 EFIS and a tablet. The mini EFIS's are pretty tempting though.

[Nev]

Definitely agree with svyolo on this. In aviation we tend to have so many backups......on backups. The attraction to VFR is the relative simplicity. With one of today’s modern EFIS screens and a window, you’ve got far superior navigation to most modern jets, and a backup!

[svyolo]

Once you get used to glass (glass cripple), the only useful backup for glass is.....more glass. I downloaded I-EFIS light on my last couple of phones and a tablet. It works amazingly well, even on internal sensors. And I tried it in a plane.

You can get groundspeed and altitude from a GPS app on a phone or tablet. I have tried that before in a plane as well.