Asking around - Electronic Ignition options for O-360 with single mag mount?

[James]

Hello Bearhawkers,

I'm still a while away from worrying about the engine side of things, but I've been thinking ahead about my ignition options anyway.

I have an O-360-A1G6D Lycoming overhauled for experimental use, and modified with an updraft MA-4 updraft carburetor.
It came off a twin engine aircraft, and so has only the one drive pad for a Bendix D2000-type dual mag.
Obviously these dual mags aren't really supported going forward, and have a single point of failure, so I'm looking at new options.

I'm thinking of a single IC mag modified to go in this drive pad, and a separate EI system run off crank timing.

The reason I'm going with the traditional mag rather than just blanking off the drive pad and going fully EI is because I just can't bring myself to fully trust anything that has a computer inside it.
Plus I want to do away with the need for a second battery as backup.
As Svyolo says (thread 38792), one EI system will get me about 80% of the benefits of dual. And I might be able to save some money on spark plugs :-)

Ok, so looking around the net, I've discovered:

Light Speed Plasma II
Electroair + EA-003 crank timer.
EFII System 32

seem to be the only companies that offer EI based on crankshaft timing.

All the other systems require putting the timing mechanism into an existing magneto drive pad.

Can anyone suggest any other systems I should start researching?
Or is there a smarter way to look at this whole ignition question? I have zero experience with piston engines, and even less operating fixed wing aircraft, so it's all new to me :-)

BAnton and Rob Caldwall have both installed the Light Speeds - any thoughts on a capacitor discharge type EI in terms of performance and reliability?



Ok, thanks in advance for sharing the wisdom guys :-)


James

[svyolo]

I am not familiar with how flexible LS and Electroair are. I think owners are happy with both. EFII and SDS can run 2 different ignition maps, switched with a toggle switch, plus you can adjust them. LOP ops supposedly benefit from a bit more advance (5 degrees). Autogas likes a little less advance than 100LL.

On the FI side I prefer some of SDS's features, but on the EI side I think they are broadly similar. I think EFII does more of the wiring for you if that is important. A bit less labor to install.

I am not sure about Electroair, but LS, SDS, and EFII all use very little electricity. A small backup battery will run 1 ignition for several hours. I think LS sells one as an option.

[zkelley2]

You should look into how long a battery can actually sustain an amperage. They way they rate them does not mean with a 10Ah battery and a draw of 5A that it'll give you 2 hours. Once I found this out, I couldn't imagine going with a dual battery system unless I was confident I'd always be close to an airport.

[robcaldwell]

James, I decided against EI. I might go with it in the future, but for now I will be using magnetos. I explain in this video:

[James]

Wow Rob, I can't believe there are guys out there who not only have the time do build a beautiful aircraft, but also make a video about it as well! :-)
Thanks for the tips, like you say everything's a bit of a compromise when it comes to performance, installation ease, quality of build etc etc.

I'll keep doing some research, and let you know what I come up with, post it back on the forum

James

[Bcone1381]

Surefly and Pmag are two that come to my mind immediately. They look like mags, and install like mags and don't use an external trigger mechanism.

Surefly is certified, requires power from the electrical system, draws 0.7A per ignition and is to be installed directly to your battery. If you turn off your master switch it will keep running, assuming we have a reliable airworthy battery. Properly designed you will run out of fuel before the battery is depleted. Lycoming is installing surely mags on new engines and I think will certify new engines soon with two of them installed.

The Pmag is experimental, self powered above all normal RPM's and is powered by the electrical system to start the engine. It requires a cooling air source, typically from the top of the engine baffles.

I don't know about timing curves, except that Pmags can advance timing during low power to improve economy or power output.

[zkelley2]

He can't use either of those on his single mag drive engine.

[zkelley2]

I've put a plasma II system in a previous airplane and now I've done an SDS install. The plasma II is complete garbage in quality of components compared to the SDS. No way in hell I'd run one again. Knowing how the coils are terminated, I wouldn't' even consider an airplane with a dual lightspeed to be airworthy.
I think guys have tried to modify a single magneto to fit the duel mag drive hole, I've never heard of anyone being successful. You options are putting a new accessory case and gears on(probably the best option if the engine isn't installed yet), sticking with the dual mag drive or going duel SDS/EFII.
For what it's worth, a duel SDS CPI is cheaper than both mags overhauled.

[James]

Thanks Zkelley, SDS is another company I hadn't come across yet.
They have another variation on the crank timing system theme.
Also, they have the most interesting website I've come across in a long time - not much marketing, just interesting pictures of them building their product :-)

Keep the tips coming guys,

James

[zkelley2]

The EFII system is a repackaged SDS system.

[zkelley2]

Also, if it's not on yet, I'd seriously look at finding a serviceable accessory case and whatever gears you need to convert it to 2 magneto drives. Literally no one want's a xxxxD engine and they certainly don't want to maintain those magnetos.

[James]

Righto Zkelley,
so do you know if all the accessory cases on the O-360A engines are interchangeable?

https://www.lycoming.com/sites/default/files/O-360-A%20Parts%20Catalog%20PC-306-1.pdf

According to this parts diagram Fig 2-1, it seems I have the LW-10891 casing - I guess I could replace it with any other casing PN applicable to other than -D type engine build-ups. But then I notice that some of the engine build-ups have more than one accessory casing part number... confusing! :-/

I'll give Lycoming a call - I notice they change out the cases as standed on overhaul, so they must be on offer here in Australia. I'll also start calling around some engine shops.

Thanks for the tip,
James

[tailwind]

I am not up on these systems but if installed, does the fuel air map have to be developed for the engine?

[zkelley2]

So there are systems that are ignition only. I think that's what we're talking about here.

SDS/EFII do have electronic fuel injection as well if desired, but both come with maps. You can change those maps though.

There have been a number of failures that brought the airplane down, but every one I read, the install was done incorrectly. No part of the system actually failed.

[tailwind]

Also in the kit planes may 2020 issue there is a Murphy article with an LS3 engine running a SDS ignition system.

[svyolo]

SDS has been around a long time. I have known about them for non-aviation EFI for over 15 years. I think Ross has been in business about 25 years.

Other than a bunch of new pictures, their website looks EXACTLY like it did 15 years ago.

SDS and EFII have only 2 moving parts on their stand alone ignition systems. Those parts are 2 magnets on the flywheel. There is nothing to wear out but spark plugs. But you do have to do a quality wiring job on the install.

[zkelley2]

So far Ross has been the best person I have ever worked with that sells an aviation product. The costumer service is second to none in our realm.

[svyolo]

Yeah. He is also more knowledgeable on combustion engines of all types than anyone I can recall. Both theoretical, and practical. Really bright guy.

[robcaldwell]

svyolo The EI that Lycoming sells is from SureFly. Pmag is not certified, yet.

[Gerd Mannsperger]

Just a word of caution on the Electronic ignitions, while I am aware of all the positives and how well they work on all the power equipment and cars we run......

I had to remove the electronic Ignitions we ran from service due to rather Bizarre failures.

They are no where near the quality and reliability electronics we are used to in even the simplest generator.

Electron air could not even provide me with parts support to keep my planes running. On the positive end they did refund me the full price once I shipped the product back after 1/2 year of use.

I still keep my eye on the new products as they will be the way of the future. As soon as they are fully self generating and as reliable as my Snowmobile or Yamaha generator Ignitions

I will be the first one to jump in and convert my whole fleet. Unfortunately the first foray was a total disaster and luckily the magneto saved the day.

We also had a few experimental cubs with electronic Ignitions have unexpected layovers here while waiting for ignition parts as well.

My experience is now 2 years old and some new Players are on the Market.

To work to its true potential one will need 2 electronic Ignition systems that advance at the same time to have a even flame front for perfect combustion.

But at that point it just has to work right and reliably.

In My case I was sure happy to have a back up Mag.

The failure was in the control box the the Ignition failed at 21 Inches of Manifold pressure but checked perfect on run up.

We had a significant loss of take of power (very noticeable on floats) but hard to diagnose when having a perfect Mag check.

I would fly behind a Yamaha Apex engine with single Ignition any day ( I have many thousands of hours on them without a single failure)

On the Aircraft engine Ignitions I need a bit more assurance of Quality and reliability. They simply do not do the same reliability testing as automotive and Utility equipment Companies.

We are the test Mules for Aviation Quality products.

[James]

I'm totally on board with you Gerd - that's why I want at least one "traditional" mechanical magneto. I'm not sure I'd ever purchase 2 of the same type of after-market EI in case I got stung like you have, but then having two different EI systems bolted on to the one engine seems ridiculous. Still, lots of different avenues to explore.

James

[svyolo]

I do like the idea of having two completely different types of ignition systems. One gives you the best performance. One will fail at a different time and place than the other. You should never lose both.

FWIW the SDS/EFII stuff is all OEM automotive parts forward of the firewall. Bosche (I think) MAP sensors. Very high quality Hall Effect sensors. The coils and igniters are both straight out of some model car. Because of that all the connectors FWF are also automotive type and quality. Sealed Weatherpack style or similar. No spade or ring connectors.

I almost want to buy an extra EFI system from SDS, just to put on my coffee as decoration. It is beautiful to look at. The ECU box is probably strong enough to use as a field repair on the main spar.

[James]

Yep, this forum should run a "lockdown competition" for the best aviation-themed coffee table.

I keep asking my work if they'll let me take home a GE T700 gas turbine, I'll just a put glass plate on top of it. The answer is generally "no".

The guy I bought my bearhawk kit from was busy cutting the bottom skin off a horizontal stabiliser from a west wind or F100 or something - he was going to turn it upside down, and put a see-through top on it for a dining table. Very cool, you could see all the structural doublers, electrical looms, hyd lines etc.

I've just run the idea past my wife - none of the emoji faces I can select below fully capture her reaction.

James

[Gerd Mannsperger]

Although not the most desirable Ignition the the dual mag can be overhauled consumable parts are available. The only issue is if you have a worn or cracked magneto housing you can not buy a new one. There are still thousands of them running.

The best coffee table is at Kenmore air harbour they have a Radial R985 Beaver engine as a leg with a Glass plate mounted to the Crankshaft

All shiny and polished up with none of the typical oil leaks​ Got Love the old radials

[Gerd Mannsperger]

An enjoyable day at the office Finished of some maintenance and had to do a test flight on a friends 170 and 150/150

We even saw some strange ice Gophers

[Nev]

Awesome, Love it !