Rudder Pedal/Brakes ergonomics

[rodsmith]

With my heels on the floor my toes don't quite reach the brake pedals. If I lift my feet up to reach the brakes, I need to arch my feet back to keep from pressing on the brake pedals while moving the rudder pedals. My rudder/brake pedals were built according to plans, original 4-place, I assume the factory uses the same arrangement. I have the adjusters on the gerdes master cylinders lowered as much as possible, I could get them lower by cutting off some of the threaded rod. That would help with the angle of the brake pedals, but I still would have to lift my feet. I am considered shortening my brake pedals 3/4 of an inch. Also considering swapping the 1/2" horizontal tube for an oval 3x2 steel plate. I think that might provide better feel. Would like to hear the experience of those flying their Bearhawks. By the way my feet are size 10, think that is about average.

[stinger]

IMG_2780.jpg Rod, I had the same problem, I am 5ft. 6inch. I lowered the pedals pivot point under the floor frame and that did it for me . My grandson is 6ft and he has no problems . Stinger

[kestrel]

I wear 10 1/2 to 11 shoes. For take-off and landing I raise my feet up to reach the brakes. In flight, my heels are on the floor. This has been my normal practice for all toe brake planes that I've flown and it has never been an issue.

However, heel brakes that are tipped back too far making it hard to stay off the brakes unless I want them drive me nuts and make me long for the J-3 heel brakes that I learned to fly on. Those allowed me to put in full rudder with my toe and then add some brake with my heel if I wanted it. Most seem to hate them. I love them.

[kestrel]

Whoops! That was supposed to say, "However, TOE brakes that are tipped back..."

[geraldmorrissey]

I learned to fly with J-3 heel brakes. I love them as well. Most will call you insane. Got to keep the ankles limber, a little ice skating helps. I'd like to make some non functional balsa wood replicas for my Patrol just to hear the reactions.

[whee]

Rod, shortening the pedals may not have favorable results. It will change the lever arm resulting in a stiffer feeling rudder. Maybe noticeable, maybe not. Also, I do like Kestrel and raise my feet for takeoff and landing but put my heels on the floor while flying. Same thing in a Cessna.

With my size 9.5 feet it works out good to have the arch of my shoe on the pedal and my toes on the brakes during the takeoff/landing phase. The arch holds my foot in place, it’s not like you’re trying to hold you feet up in the air.

I too learned with heel brakes and love them. I used to despise toe brakes but now find them tolerable. Still, if the opportunity came around I would swap to heel brakes without hesitation.

[rodsmith]

Thanks Jon, I was only considering shortening the brake pedals, which would require some more force to actuate them but allow use of them with my feet on the floor. It's been so long since I had my Maule, I can't remember if I had to raise my feet for braking. I'm leaning toward cutting some off the brake cylinder rods so that the pedals can be tilted farther forward and I will be less likely to accidently activate them.

[Nev]

Rod, mine had the same issue and I spent some time adjusting them prior to the first flight. I moved the rudder pedals slightly aft (towards me - which simultaneously moves the brake pedals towards the firewall) by changing the cable attachment hole (see picture) and then adjusted the brake cylinders so the brake pedals require a small reach. I still need to lift my feet up to reach the brakes but it's comfortable and works well. Early in my BH flying I caught myself using the brakes far too much during the landing roll for steering - I already had my feet lifted on touchdown. For me it seemed to be a bad habit with a large downside if things went pear-shaped. Now, I keep my heels on the floor until below 20kts or so. It forces me to use the rudder and ailerons properly during crosswinds etc. Maybe I could reduce the ground roll a bit more by getting straight onto the brakes, but I'm comfortable with the balance of landing roll distance, controllability, risks associated with inadvertent heavy braking etc.

E12F6202-99DB-49FB-8AF9-118EAFF4FBC2.jpg

[David Swartzendruber]

I'm leaning toward cutting some off the brake cylinder rods so that the pedals can be tilted farther forward and I will be less likely to accidently activate them.

Rather than cut the brake cylinder rod, I'd shorten the aluminum extension/fork that was provided with the kit and leave the master cylinder in stock configuration. That is the normal procedure on Patrol's and LSA's. If you or a future owner have to replace a brake master cylinder in the future, you wouldn't have to cut it again.

[Battson]

With my heels on the floor my toes don't quite reach the brake pedals. If I lift my feet up to reach the brakes, I need to arch my feet back to keep from pressing on the brake pedals while moving the rudder pedals. My rudder/brake pedals were built according to plans, original 4-place, I assume the factory uses the same arrangement. I have the adjusters on the gerdes master cylinders lowered as much as possible, I could get them lower by cutting off some of the threaded rod. That would help with the angle of the brake pedals, but I still would have to lift my feet. I am considered shortening my brake pedals 3/4 of an inch. Also considering swapping the 1/2" horizontal tube for an oval 3x2 steel plate. I think that might provide better feel. Would like to hear the experience of those flying their Bearhawks. By the way my feet are size 10, think that is about average.

This all sounds normal, Rod.

It bothered me too when I was building, but when you're flying it's actually really good. You only slide your feet up for landing and ground operations. Mine are still per plans.

I would try it, and see how you like it first, before changing anything. Easy enough to change it later.

My feet are also a size 10.


It's also worth considering how the pedals feel at full deflection, and whether you're likely to be applying brakes anyway when you want full deflection. (You probably do want brakes. You tend to get better steerage with brakes than the tailwheel in many situations, such as wind / slope / long grass / etc.)

[Viking]

Rod, rather than shortening the brake pedals, I would consider some combination of shortening the brake rod extension and fabricating a set of raised heel plates for your feet to rest on during cruise. they could be made from balsa, or pretty much anything you desire. They would be fairly easy to experiment with, easy to remove if you decided you didn't like them, and won't change any of the lever arms in the brake pedal assembly.

[rodsmith]

Thought I would give an update on what I decided about the rudder pedal/brake arrangement. I listened to those flying and decided that lifting my feet onto the pedals for take off, landing and ground operations was reasonable. I also decided that Bob designed the brake pedals the way he did for a reason, shortening them would require additional force to actuate. I did end up cutting a 1/4" off the cylinder rods. This moved the brake pedals further forward than the original adjustment allowed. Now with the pedals neutral to forward all is good, I can move the pedal without actuating the brake. I still have a problem with the rearward moving pedal, as its rearward angle increases I cannot keep my foot on the pedal without pressure on the brake pedal. Cannot arch my foot that far backward. Looking at the overall geometry I realized that when I sized the rudder cables I moved the pedals back further than necessary. I was worried about conflict with the firewall, specifically the 3/4" of sound/heat foam insulation between the tubing. It turns out they are further back than necessary, at max deflection the rear pedal is about at a 45 deg angle. I will be replacing the cables as soon as I receive the materials, I can lengthen them by about 5/8". That will go a long way toward fixing or alleviating the issue I have. I hope this discussion will be helpful for others when setting up their rudder/brake pedals.

[Bcone1381]

Another view on lengthening the rudder cable….Mark provided my kit with a rudder adjustment fixture…it’s a piece of metal about 3/4” wide maybe two inches long with about 4 holes drill in a line. The fixture is attached between the rudder pedal and the cables eye splice.

[rodsmith]

That's a great idea Brooks, I saw this just before ordering cable and terminals.