Lycoming core prices----

[fairchild1934]

Browsed through barnstormers again last night. looked at o-360 , IO-360 and o-540 cores. i saw 540 core that were 2000 hour and had prop strikes for 28 to 35,000 $ One had 38/1000 of hub runout. O-360 prop strike cores for 15,000.......


I remember someone here said bob told them a good price for 540 cores was 6-8K $.

Is this just an artifact of the engine vampires buying up all the engines before we get a chance-- and putting 100% markup on them??????
I also see a lot of sellers from Canada, Italy and south America. im thinking they would not be advertising here if our market wasnt massively inflated----
How do we even get a chance now ? Do we have to beat the vampires to the wreckage to get a core ?

What can we do ????

Signed: frustrated.

[Chris Werner]

About three years ago I bought an O-540 core no prop strike for under 10k. I found it by searching in places like airboat forums.

[fairchild1934]

did the case and crank turn out to be serviceable ?

[Chris Werner]

It's still sitting on the pallet. From the outside it looks better than the one on my Comanche. I have looked around with a borescope and it looks very clean. At the time Lycon wanted almost double for a core so I took the gamble. This year I was close to getting the overhaul done and found that the quote from thee years ago is nowhere near today's price. It is almost double now, should have sucked it up and done it back then. After seeing your post I looked around a little, it's ridiculous what guys are asking for runout engines.

[paulodonnell]

I just can't rationalize the pricing of these 1950s motors either. Was looking at some pics last night sent to me by a Polish builder using UL Powers turbo charged Fadec 520T motor in his BH4. I'm thinking that's what may go in my Patrol SP when the time comes!

[jaredyates]

The original 1994 design was called just the "Bearhawk". The Patrol came along as the "Patrol". Obviously that wasn't going to work when the LSA came along. So here's the language that I use in the Beartracks, store art:, etc
The original 1994 Bearhawk is the "Bearhawk 4-Place".
The next one in the series is the "Bearhawk Patrol" then the "Bearhawk LSA". The two seat side by side is the "Bearhawk Companion" and the 300-pound plane is the "Bearhawk Five". As you can see, each one has a "Bearhawk" and a modifier.
Bob, for reasons that I don't know because I didn't ask, doesn't like "bravo". So we refer to the modified/updated "Bearhawk 4-Place" as the "Bearhawk 4-Place Model B".
Bob is very good at designing airplanes. Sometimes when it comes to marketing, there are opportunities for improvement. It is quite possible that someone with more authority will come along and change this up, but this is the convention that I have adopted in my involvement.

The cabin size of the Bearhawk Five is unique, and its width and length do not match any of the other models.

[SpruceForest]

Per the website, cabin length (125"), width (44.5") and wingspan of B Model and BH5 are identical, with 2500 vs. 3000 lb MGW. Also worth noting that Companion has the same 113" cabin length as the Patrol, but a 43" cabin width versus 32" on the Patrol, as well as another 200 lbs on the MGW side.

[jaredyates]

That is a typo on the website. The Five cabin is a foot longer than the 4-Place.

[paulodonnell]

No its a Bearhawk 4

[Paul Johnston]

The UL looks ok but with those RPM’s you wouldn’t be using a long prop- it would be like under 70”. Have you tried Wentworth Aircraft? I wouldn’t shy away from strike engines-they’ll garantee the case for cracks so figure in the cost of a yellow tag crank

[paulodonnell]

The UL Power 520 is 220HP at 2700 RPM all the way to 15,000 ft., not 3300 rpm!

[Paul Johnston]

The 580T is 220hp@3700rpm. Showing this in kitplanes January/ February 2024 engines buyer’s guide.

[paulodonnell]

I'd say 3700 RPM in Kitplanes is a typo, their website cites 2700... will know more soon as I'm signed up for a days training at UL in Belgium next week..

[fairchild1934]

I honestly don't know what we are supposed to do with this situation. You can't really blame the core prices on inflation--- i think its these brokers who vacuum engines directly from the insurance companies at low ball prices and then put them up for sale at double or triple what they paid. I think THATS the problem. I am thinking of calling some of the field reps for the big insurance companies and just ask them how us ordinary folks can get a core before the vampires get them. I wonder if the vampires have contracts with the insurance co.'s that they HAVE to sell them the core-- and they aren't allowed to cell to us ?????? Is that likely ?

i can see where a yellow tagged core or replacement parts used in overhaul would be increased by inflation because there are materials and labor involved. Just reselling a core--- not really--- just old fashioned markup for no labor or physical work. Seems to be no free market check and balance
operating in this equation........

It---- LOOKS---- like there are no or all most no core parts on the market anymore -- other than the ones being re-sold by the vampires. Am monopoly forming.

What do we do ????

[fairchild1934]

just checked E-bay for engines/cores. There are now virtually no engines there anymore. Just 2 years ago they were a good number----
This means ---- it would appear--- that the speculators (the vampires) have bought everything up and are sitting on them at 3x and 4x the
normal prices. Looks like the vampires have this deal sewed up.......

[jaredyates]

I would say the selling prices, which aren't quite the same as the asking prices, are driven first by demand. I don't have any way to know if there is someone buying them just to stash them, but I think a more likely explanation is that there are a lot of folks enjoying GA. Buying new engines has become more expensive than ever. For the prices to stay high for very long, there are enough buyers willing to pay that price. Someone who has an expensive TC airplane sitting on the ground for an engine swap is less price-elastic than someone on the path of a 3-10 year construction project.

In other words, I think the party to blame here isn't a secret society of speculating vampires, but rather the community as a whole.

In the last 3-4 years I find myself wondering how much longer flying planes for fun is going to be something people do, at least people like me. When we got into it, a Bearhawk was one of the most cost-effective 4-seat ownership options. I think it still is, relative to any other available options, but that cost of entry and ownership sure has climbed.

If anything good comes from sustained high Lycoming prices, maybe it will be more incentive to invest in developing and scaling good reliable alternatives.

[svyolo]

I am 60, and not the youngest guy at my 2 local EAA chapters, but close. The average age is probably 80. We are not a growth industry. I can see GA being aged/regulated into oblivion unless you are in an area like Alaska that requires it.

As far as prices, the asking prices of flying RV's has probably come close to doubling in the last 4 years. I can't believe what it has gotten to. Actually selling prices, I am not sure. I am not sure about engine cores but I was looking recently and saw running 320/360/540's in the mid teens.

If I was a betting man, I would say as pilots age out, airplanes, engines, and hangar space will get more plentiful and cheaper. That may all happen faster than any of us would guess. An economic downturn with lots of laid off airline pilots would accelerate that in the short term.

[Battson]

I like your optimism, but I think the true economics will turn the tables on private GA aviation. The classic "supply and demand" relationships may require a large and stable market. I think that is at risk, and we will lose the "economies of scale".

Costs will continue to rise, costs of land lease, engines, aircraft, maintenance / labour, insurance... With reducing demand - there will be fewer and fewer people to share those cost. The cost per person goes up as the industry shrinks.

[Bcone1381]

Supply & demand from an untrained aviation economist:

GA flying hours are up. way up since Covid started. Folks have money to spend and they are choosing to fly. From the beginning of Commuter Airlines no one could justify becoming a professional pilot due high cost of training and very poor pay for the first decade of a career. That is no longer the case so training new pilots is driving flying hours up too.

The engine industry was tooled up and producing for decades at pre covid levels. Post covid flying hours is drying up engine and parts inventory. Plus Superior stopped making engines due to inability to fabricate cranks that stay together.

Further more the guy fabricating engines does not want to tool up (large $ investment) for post covid levels out of fear that pre covid levels will return. No one is going to invent/certify a new better engine for the same reason. What is your crystal ball saying? Buy now or wait for a downturn?

[Battson]

In the last 3-4 years I find myself wondering how much longer flying planes for fun is going to be something people do, at least people like me.

I think the same way, and it makes me sad.

The writing appears to be on the wall for GA "as we know it". Maybe it's not obvious to everyone yet, especially in the good ol' USA, but for the western world I think it's clear to see the future - the days of people investing in new gasoline technologies are counting down.

I think the UL power and others like it are too late
The next revolution will be electric, in my humble opinion. Driving up empty weight but driving down running cost drastically.

I just hope my engine core lasts until the electric technology arrives for experimental aircraft, I can't afford the prices listed here!

[fairchild1934]

I wouldn't hold my breath on electric engine any time in the next 30 years. the failure modes are just too catastrophic IMHO. How would gasoline engines be look at if for every in flight failure there was a massive intense fire to go along with it. ? Thats what I see on the electric horizon---
and what happens when humidity causes corrosion to set in inside the battery connections ?
and if an electric car battery is 15K$----- how much will an aircraft electric batter be ? 75,000 ?
And we are still a long way from a practical super capacitor to replace a battery.


" I am not sure about engine cores but I was looking recently and saw running 320/360/540's in the mid teens."


By "running" I assume you mean timed out ? I have not seen any that cheap since before the virus hit.
Can you share where you were looking ? Would love to know---- :-)

I guess i can see how inflation on new factory engines could have sent those customers hunting for a core instead.
but I see a fair number of cores being up for sale by brokers- but at 3 and 4x the price they should be. Is it that the only reason they still have them
in stock is the 4x high price ? if that is the case --- if people are not buying those---- what are they buying in stead ?????

T

[Battson]

Well - the technology is here, and has been here for years.

There is already an electric aircraft flying at my local airport. Not to mention Air New Zealand is buying some much larger ones now as a technology trial.

There's very little factual basis to the arguments presented around the risk of electric battery fires. I am sure the media's view can be quite distorted.

It's common sense, petrol is volatile and dangerous, more so than a battery. It's clearly a safer technology, once fully mature.

A battery-powered vehicle is also orders of magnitude simpler than an equivalent internal combustion engine powered vehicle, vastly fewer moving parts to maintain. This is exactly what light aviation is premised upon, especially the Bearhawk - "simpler is better".

A battery is expensive, but the engine will be cheap. It's just spending money on a different component, overall total cost is probably the same.

[svyolo]

For the GA industry, COVID was an "upturn" Tens of thousands of commercial pilots getting paid to stay home and twiddle their thumbs. They all bought kits/airplanes/engines out of boredom.

Pre COVID, Vans RV's for sale were 4-5 pages deep, on average. Usually just 2 now. Multi year waits for kits now, and engines. The same happened with lots of supply chains. The aviation one is just playing out on a longer timescale. Economists called it "The Bullwhip Effect".