Thinking of taking the plunge...

[Flyingmike]

Howdy all.....

I'm considering building a BH because I think it best suits the mission and flying that I would like to be doing when it is complete.

About me.... nearing 40, never built a plane, or hardly anything else besides what I built in high school wood and metal shop class over 20 years ago. Mechanically knowledgeable, but I tend to goof things up a time or three before I get it right. I've got a two car garage that houses all the other toys (rafts, kayaks, mountain bikes, etc) that I would finish before I buy plans and start the project.

It's just my wife and I at home, no kids, just a couple of dogs and a cat. Leaning towards the BH so that I we could take friends with us into the Idaho backcountry. I'm intrigued by the Patrol, but I like to see my wife smile and would like to give her some time at the stick and on the engine controls and that just won't happen with the Patrol.

I fly for a living, so when I'm off of work... I'm really off of work. I don't have much else going on, I may as well build an airplane because I am too cheap to just go out and buy one. Mainly because I do not want payments and everything that goes along with that. I'd prefer to pay as I go on the build and put money into an account per hour for my labor so that when I near completion I can pay cash for the engine.

In case you didn't catch it, I live in Idaho (Boise) and spend a great deal of time outdoors hiking/biking/hunting/fishing/etc. The BH fits my mission because I'd like to use it for camping, hiking, hunting, and hauling meat out of the backcountry.

Bigger question...and I've spent weeks searching and reading forums, builder websites, etc., how much work am I getting myself into here? I don't think I would scratch build straight from plans, I'm really leaning towards buying the prefabbed spar/rib package and then building the spars and wings. Once that is complete I'm leaning towards buying the precut and pre-bent fuselage tubes and fitting it all and doing my own welding. Buying parts (such as steel parts i.e. landing gear, flap and aileron torque tubes, etc.) from Avipro or Wicks is what I am leaning towards.

Thoughts on my ideas so far? I don't have a time frame, and I'm not even going to try and put a finish date on the darn thing. I am simply looking for something to keep my active mind occupied, create something that I can be proud of, and enjoy something that is useful to me in the outdoors so that my wife and I can explore more of Idaho. Maybe I'm getting in over my head, who knows. I've never even seen a BH other than on the internet. Maybe I should get a ride with someone before I start this undertaking to see if the BH is right for us? I can't imagine it isn't. There isn't another experimental out there that I've seen that has the performance, payload, and utility that the BH has. Sure, I guess I could go buy a Maule....but then I have payments and can't afford avgas to go fly it.

Anyways, that's it for me. Still mulling it over. Plans are to finish my garage and make it into the shop/man-cave I want it to be next spring (2016) and then buy the plans, Russ's CD, Eric's build books, and anything else I can get my hands on and then decide if the investment is going to be worth it over buying a used aircraft that fits my mission.

Cheers,

-Mike

[jaredyates]

Welcome Mike! You'll find a wide variety of opinions on this topic, since builders have chosen several different paths. Here are my thoughts, which are just opinions, and are worth what you paid for them.

First, if we measure success as completing the airplane, odds of success will go up for builders who are wanting things like education and recreation from the building process. Folks who are building because they think it's a cheap way to get an airplane often become overwhelmed when they realize that's not the case. It seems you're considering both reasons, so that's why I mention it.

Second, if you think it is more expensive to buy a flying airplane than to build one, then you are probably underestimating the cost of the build, or at least valuing your time at a much lower cost per hour than most people would. This includes both explicit costs like tools, materials, additional materials to rebuild the same parts again, miscellaneous "stuff from Spruce" (bolts, brakes, alternators, paints, lubricants, books, oil cooler, fuel lines, tires, you name it), and implicit costs to your time. Time costs vary depending on the builder's circumstances. If you are gone for days at a time, maybe you can do research while you are gone, and otherwise wouldn't be doing much productive. That time has a low cost. If you have miserably cold winters, then you can make progress when you wouldn't be able to do much else, also at a low cost. But what about when the weather is good? How many trips into the backcountry are you willing to forego to build instead? Is your job structured so that you could do extra work on a day off and make more money? It's a big world out there, full of all sorts of interesting things to see and do. There are only so many hours in the day, and for me, there is never going to be enough time to see and do all the things that I'd like to see and do. Here's one way to try and think about the cost of building: right now there are at least three flying 4-place Bearhawks that I know of on the market. The asking prices are on the order of $75-85k, which I think is low, but that's what they are. Start with a number in that vicinity and start subtracting the known big-ticket expenses like engine, prop, avionics, fabric and paint, steel, and aluminum, and see how much is left to cover all of the other little stuff and the builder effort. Just some napkin-level math yields something on the order of $20-30k left after the big items. For the little things (wheels, hardware, etc), subtract, say, $10k. You could spend less money if you spent lots of time looking for good deals, but then you are just trading financial cost for time cost. That leaves 10-20k to account for tools, work space, and time. At one extreme, you have 2000 hours for $20k, or $10 per hour. At the other, you have 5000 hours at $10k for $2 per hour. Consider too that kit-built airplanes can generally demand a higher resale value, perhaps as much as $10k. These numbers should help narrow down whether you still think building is the cheaper path. It may be, but as I said before, it is probably because you have lots of low-value time available.

A reasonable build time for the kind of build you describe might likely be anywhere from 2000-5000 hours, depending on how you count the hours, how efficiently you work in the shop, and how simple or complex the final project is. It can be hard to wrap one's head around what 3500 hours actually is, so it can be helpful to divide it up and spread it out on the calendar. For example, if you are going to spend 4 hours per session and get in two sessions per week on average, then that's 416 hours per year, or on the order of 8.5 years on the calendar. As you approach 5000 hours, that looks more like 12 years. If you have that much low-cost time available, then building can be a great hobby. I enjoy it very much, and when I think of the costs of the time I've spent, it has been worthwhile "tuition" for the resulting education. After all, education is never free, and sometimes it is very expensive. That relationship has diminishing returns as tasks become more repetitive, and if I were to build another copy of the same plane, I could do it much faster, but my learning to cost ratio would be much less favorable. To put it into scratch building terms, making the first 20 ribs is going to be a great learning experience. Making the other 120 is probably going to be less learning and more just doing. Doing can be fun too, but that requires a certain mindset.

The good news is that Mark has been so flexible with offering kit components with varying degrees of completeness to allow for a spectrum between scratch building and kit building. Imagine how much less fun the process would be if it were all or none, where you'd either have to buy a full quick-build kit or build it all yourself.

[JimParker256]

I wouldn't necessarily write off the Patrol just because your wife would like some stick time. The "standard" throttle lever arrangement can easily accommodate a rear-seat throttle / prop control, and the plane already has rear-seat rudder pedals and stick - just no brakes. The elevator trim is overhead (reachable in theory from the back seat), but there didn't seem to be much trimming required in the Patrol, from what I saw on my demo flight. As for seeing her face, a "kid-mirror" (sold all over the place for keeping an eye on your kids in the back seat of your SUV) will solve that one.

There's just something about being able to look out of both sides of the airplane, and see basically straight down... The Patrol is a really fun plane to fly, and (almost) equally fun to be a passenger. Of course, if you need room for a third or fourth person, the 4-place Bearhawk would be the ticket. But if it's just you, or just you & the wife, the Patrol can be a really fun airplane!

All that said, there is a LOT of time investment in building any airplane, and the cost adds up in a hurry. I will be buying an older Citabria (probably a 7ECA) to learn tailwheel flying, and to fly while I build. The $35K to $40K price I expect to pay for a nice example is about what I figure I will have invested in the Patrol before paying for the engine and prop, even if I value my time at $0 per hour...

But I'm not doing this to save money, I'm doing it to satisfy the "itch" I've had since I was about 15, and my girlfriend's dad had a Sonerai 2L under construction in his garage. He got me hooked, but good! Now I'm "living the dream" and learning an incredible amount along the way. Building is almost as much fun as flying, and sometimes a lot more satisfying!

Good luck to you!

[Battson]

Do it! You will not be disappointed.

The Bearhawk will do EVERYTHING you could possibly want in a practical backcountry aircraft. We hauled 5 deer in ours last weekend, off an impromptu and pretty rough surface. It was a blast!

Yes there is work to do, but given your situation in your home life outside of work (as described by yourself) it sounds like a great project which you will get huge enjoyment out of. Having the project at home is so important.
I finished my kitset in 18 months, from delivery to departing runway 25. That was working most weekends and a little time after work most days.

I got my wife to help with the odd job, and now she really enjoys flying in a plane which see feels she played a meaningful part in. (avoid the stressful jobs though!)

[tailwind]

You don't "build an airplane ". If you start from this mind set the project will soon eat one up and it will end up never being finished. You need to get satisfaction from making one part well and receiving satisfaction from completing each part perhaps as often as 120 times. The best thing I can think of to compare building an airplane to would be like building a house. You will need to commit yourself to completing at least one part each day. I'm probably up side down in value on the plane but it is what I wanted. I built it to satisfy my desire and need. I flew 5 hours last weekend or rather should I say the autopilot did. I enjoy it more every time I fly it.

[whee]

Welcome Mike.

The BH is a great airplane for flying Idaho. I currently have a BH under construction in my two car garage which also houses kayaks/rafts/MTBs and during the winter my wife's car.

I only have a couple things to say. First, you really need to make sure you are dedicated to building an airplane. It is a huge commitment and requires dedication. I've learned that I'm more of an airplane rebuilder than a airplane builder. In the 10 months I've been working on my project my dedication has been tested several times. Several times I've gotten frustrated and wished I'd just bought a Cessna 180😳 However, there are many things I have enjoyed about the build and I'm really looking forward to much of the work I have coming up. Second, the cost really depends on the builder and what he includes in the build cost. I don't count my time or the tools. My target was 2 yrs and $40k to finish my build. I'm not sure I'll make the two years but I'm currently on target to hit $40k. I couldn't buy a C180 for that price but I also wouldn't have to spend a couple years building it.

In short, DO IT but go in eyes wide open. If you ever make it to East Idaho look me up. My garage is scary enough that if you have any doubts you'll give up before you start. If looking in my garage doesn't scare you off then I bet you could finish your own build.😎

[N942VT]

You can do it Mike, it's really like building anything else, a little at a time. You ask how much work you're getting into, well it's allot, probably more than you know at this point but the rewards are great. The house building is a good analogy, lots of different tasks that require a measure of skill to accomplish but none out of reach for a dedicated guy. BUT, ask yourself if you really like building things because you will be building this thing for quite some time. The time will add up, the receipts will add up and just when you think you can't take any more you'll need an engine, prop, and panel - that will make you pucker! However if you're dedicated, it's a great accomplishment that will change your life, really. It's a small crowd that can say they built what they are flying, it's a matter of great pride.
Do yourself a favor and look hard at the QB kits, allot of money but money very well spent. I've said before I think saving the money for a QB kit with the same dedication as scratch building still puts you way ahead.

[Flyingmike]

Gentlemen,

From the bottom of my heart, thank you. I appreciate the time that each and every one of you took to respond!

Whee, where in eastern Idaho? My wife is from Idaho Falls. We are often out there.

Cheers,

-Mike

[whee]

Idaho Falls. Shoot me a pm if you want to stop by.