New here- bringing questions

[Will_Kumley]

Hola' - No I don't speak Spanish. Thats just my typical greeting. Found this site while looking at Bearhawks and dreaming of one day building my own plane. The Bearhawk 4 place is definitely in my top 3 as I think it has a lot of what I want and would use. What are some of the cons you all have seen with the bearhawk kits? I personally love the look of the aircraft and could see myself building/owning/flying one. I've never flown or been in a fabric covered aircraft and am curious how it is different than a metal or composite aircraft. Does it suffer from heat loss? While I can wear a jacket while flying I'd rather be able to turn on the heat vents and cruise in comfort.

For what its worth the other considerations in the kitbuild world are:
Velocity (FG) - the wife seems to love the look but I've got concerns on comfort, visibility, and its restriction from flying into undeveloped runways. Not sure how much I'll want to do that last part but also don't want to limit myself when solo or if the wife will entertain the idea. I also have heard heating the cabin in a Velocity is more difficult with the rear engine setup.
Van RV10 - Main reason I'd even consider this is the all metal construction and how much info there is to help understand the build.

The velocity is obviously the fastest plane in the short list which sounds nice. but in all honesty, I'm fairly happy with the Cessna 172's and Cherokee's that I currently rent. I believe all three options are faster on paper than the current rentals I fly.

[Brett795]

Will, I have not received our BH kit yet but the only con I see is the wait time. But again you’ll have just as long of a wait at Velocity and guessing at Vans as well.
I currently am flying a FG Velocity that I finished 6 years ago. With owning our funeral home and 3 kids, My wife wants a plane that lands slower. She said she doesn’t care how fast we go, but she’s not a fan of landing 70 knots let alone if it gets quiet in the plane and we need to use a field. While I love the speed and at high altitude, the glide ratio gives you a good range but I miss out on a lot of fly ins around Indiana & Michigan when they are at grass strips. good luck

[Utah-Jay]

I will be the first to say… What is your mission? Because your stated choices are all over the place.

If you want to fly slow and fast, then the BH is by far the best option to do both.

Considering both a BH and a Velocity are two very different missions.

I went with a BH as it has the widest envelope in the backcountry plane category. As for backcountry planes, be very careful, there is a HUGE difference between a backcountry plane and a backcountry capable plane. Let me repeat…. HUGE difference.

I am not gonna drag anyone through the mud, but feel free to PM me if you are not sure what I am talking about.

I am a BH guy through and through, but if you are thinking Vans, get in line to get in line for an RV-15. It seems like it will have a good envelope and the landing gear is down right innovative

[Battson]

I feel we can almost foretell the Vans RV-15 being a "backcountry capable" plane. Time will tell. At first glance, I just don't see it having the kind of useful load, utility, and rugged durability which we've come to expect. I stand to be proven wrong, but show me how to load a 45x45 moose head on it
That said, lower 48 backcountry airstrips are kinda different - it's going to be good for a lot of that stuff. AK or other more remote / extreme backcountry is what I am talking about.

[Will_Kumley]

Thanks Brett, I do think all kits are on a backorder at the moment. The good thing for us is we are in the early stage of looking. The shorter landing distance of the BH could be a nice benefit.

[Will_Kumley]

I will be the first to say… What is your mission? Because your stated choices are all over the place.

Trust me, I know the three options are all over the place. Mission changes depending on which one of us you ask. I'll say a 4 place plane (3 plus baggage) would be ideal. Six is too large for us as it would rarely get used to its full potential which is why all three options are 4 place planes. She likes to travel A to B and explore while at locations that a 172 or Cherokee 180 will take us to. Everyone wants more speed so I can see the allure of the Velocity or something similar. I also like to land on shorter runways and hit up smaller, more isolated airports from time to time which is what steers me away from the Velocity. In a perfect world if I was going certified, I'd likely get a 182 or a Cherokee 235 but prices have gone bananas over the past few years. A build has advantages and disadvantages such as more plane for our money that can be customized to a bit for what we want, but at the expense of time as the build is completed.

[nborer]

I have a colleague who built a Velocity. He sold it and bought a C182. His reason was that he was chewing up a lot of runway and wanted to haul his family around without sweating all but the longest fields. He misses the speed but is a lot less nervous going into - and getting out of - fields he wants to go visit. Top speed sells at first, but low speed gets you into places comfortably. Your experience may vary, but I thought I'd pass along his thoughts. Personally, I didn't want the Bearhawk for super-STOL stuff, but I have found over the years that I appreciate low speeds... and my wife likes high wings for photography. Plus it's hard to beat drinking a beer under your wing while watching airplanes land at Oshkosh and Sun-n-Fun. The time enroute to me is just a bonus. But that's my choice, and I'm many years away from realizing its benefits... and drawbacks!

[JimParker256]

How do your wife and kids feel about building an airplane? Are they enthusiastic about it? Is your wife the type who would work beside you in the build? If so, and if you yourself simply cannot imagine flying in something that you didn't build – where you touched every bolt and rivet in the entire airplane – then maybe building is for you.

But if you're only considering building a Bearhawk because it might be cheaper than one of the "expensive" spam cans (182 or 235), or because the Bearhawk sounds like a fun plane to fly (spoiler alert - it is!), or if your family is NOT super-excited about the prospect of spending evenings and weekends in the shop with you for the next several years, then do yourself a favor, and buy a flying airplane. If you have to take a 2nd job and work evenings and weekends to do it, well, you still will probably come out ahead in terms of time invested...

Statistically, the vast majority of kit purchasers do not finish their kits. Much closer to home, I am one of those who did not complete a kit – in my case, a Patrol. I had wanted to build a plane since I was a teenager, and my girlfriend's dad was building a Sonerai 2. I helped him with it a few times, and thought it was the coolest thing ever. Career, kids, and other things interfered with that dream until I saw an article on the Patrol, and absolutely fell in love with it. Got a demo flight at OSH, and bought a QB kit. For the first two years, I made slow but steady progress on the fuselage. But it was a lot harder than I expected it to be. For one thing, my wife was supportive, but not particularly interested in helping me with the build. She would reluctantly drop what she was doing to come help move stuff, or hold something when I needed a second set of hands, but it wasn't enjoyable for her. And we lived out in the boonies, where it might take my EAA buddies a 1/2 hour (each way) just to drive to my house so they could help me...

The third year, I found myself spending less and less time on the project. I was frustrated with myself, and every time I walked into the shop for something else, the Patrol was there, accusing me of neglecting it. (Or at least, that's how I was feeling about it.) I got little bursts of renewed vigor on the project from time to time, but invariable I'd get well into something and run into a question I couldn't easily find an answer for, or need some help only to find my wife either gone or too busy to hep, and it would sit again for a while.

Eventually, my wife (who is very wise) said to me "You don't seem to be enjoying working on the airplane any more. Wouldn't you rather be flying something than building?" My immediate reaction was "What? Are you crazy? This has been my lifelong dream! I can't walk away from it..." But after a few weeks of careful consideration, I realized that she was absolutely right. I would love to OWN and FLY a Patrol, but I simply wasn't enjoying the building process as much as I thought I would. (Even today, that's hard to admit - much less in "public" like this...)

So I found a buyer for my kit, and moved on. I'm still here on this forum, avidly reading every post on every thread, and occasionally chiming in when I think I can contribute. But my building days are done. I now own a "backcountry capable - sort of" airplane that I enjoy flying (though nothing to compare to a Patrol!), and I've basically come to terms with the fact that I'll probably never own a Patrol. Ironically, the reason is that a completed Patrol is worth about the same $$ as those "expensive" spam cans Will mentioned.

In my case, I would have been WAY ahead if I had purchases something like a Maule or 182 and just flown it...

[rodsmith]

Interesting post Jim. Your wife's reaction to building/helping mirrors mine although she will enjoy all the trips we can take. In my case I live on an airpark, other pilots have always been available for help when I needed it, mainly moving large pieces, hanging wings etc. I was close to stalling out on my mostly scratch built project 3 years ago and we had a similar conversation. In my case I rededicated myself to completing it and now at 4-6 months from flying I am so glad I did, versus buying something else. You are correct, would have been so much easier to buy a Maule or similar so many years ago, but now I will have a plane that is exactly what I wanted. No shame in not completing and going another route!

[rodsmith]

"Thanks Brett, I do think all kits are on a backorder at the moment. The good thing for us is we are in the early stage of looking. The shorter landing distance of the BH could be a nice benefit."

Will, Jim's post above should give you some insight on whether you should build vs buying. Don't make the mistake of thinking you will save a lot of money. The cost will depend on how good you are at finding good deals on used parts, or maybe you just want everything new. You don't say whether you are a taildrager pilot, although I think any pilot that really want's to, can successfully transition to tailwheels. Tailwheel planes such as Maules, C180s etc. seem to command a premium these days. You might consider something like a C182 with larger tires. With good training they make a back country capable aircraft that can land a lot of places. Addressing your questions on building a Bearhawk kit, probably a little more demanding than building a Van's kit, just because of the completion and excellent documentation provided by Vans. There is all kinds of help available through this forum and by Mark Goldberg as a customer. Do you have an active EAA chapter you can lean on for help? Most people are initially intimidated by fabric, but end up really enjoying that part of the project. You asked about heat loss in a fabric aircraft. With similar insulation probably less than a metal aircraft. Insulation is heavy, just one more decision to make. In my case interior finish if also fabric, only insulation is behind the firewall and around the boot cowl, hoping the two heat muffs are effective. Good luck in which ever way you decide to go!

[Bcone1381]

Jim, many parts of your story mimic mine.....family situation, hope, etc. But I am still having fun. I started in building ribs 2015, got the kit in 2017. The kit was a three year project. Today I'm doing electrical.

Little things make a huge difference. I have a saying in my shop. Gumption: Postitive Psychotic Energy. Seek it, Find it, Cherish it. Know what encourages it and know what sucks it away and do what you can to feed it. Little things feed it and suck it away. Study this.

I named the plane Miss Goulet after my wife. The N-number is our anniversary. She feels apart of it because of those decisions building gumption. She supports my build, but she might not enjoy flying....we'll see. I wont fly GA until the Patrol is complete, for that might suck gumption...positive energy. This is building season, not flying season. When it's done I will get current again in GA Tailwheel.

Things that suck gumption:
-Not having the right tools.
-Cheap tools.
-Parts not on hand, or
-A lost a tool or part.
-If I had an airplane or was a member of the Glider Club, then a sunny Saturday morning would suck gumption.
-Wishing it was done.

Thing that build positive energy for me.
-When I arrive at the shop and read my "NEXT TIME DO ______." (I leave a note in my build journal where I left off so I get back on task.)
-Good Tools
-A clean shop, so I should clean up at the start of every session.
-A completed task done with quality.
-My Fabric Job.
-Keeping focused on that one single task I am doing, and do it over until I see a quality result.
-Discovery of a method that gives success after experiencing failure, like I did yesterday building a single wire for a circuit.
-Exercise to keep me fit so I can build.
-Mentors

Honestly, this time of year is tougher. I will not prioritize the project over family. I have four boys, all grown up now. When they are home for holidays, I am not in the shop. And when I am gone for work, I am not in the shop. Time Away with no progress is tough for me. But in the long run when I am old and can't see or hear, or walk with the assistance, I want them to have good memories of our family and be able to say I never prioritized the plane ahead of them.

[marcusofcotton]

Many truths in those excellent specifics Brooks!

[Will_Kumley]

How do your wife and kids feel about building an airplane? Are they enthusiastic about it? Is your wife the type who would work beside you in the build? If so, and if you yourself simply cannot imagine flying in something that you didn't build – where you touched every bolt and rivet in the entire airplane – then maybe building is for you.

But if you're only considering building a Bearhawk because it might be cheaper than one of the "expensive" spam cans (182 or 235), or because the Bearhawk sounds like a fun plane to fly (spoiler alert - it is!), or if your family is NOT super-excited about the prospect of spending evenings and weekends in the shop with you for the next several years, then do yourself a favor, and buy a flying airplane. If you have to take a 2nd job and work evenings and weekends to do it, well, you still will probably come out ahead in terms of time invested...

Statistically, the vast majority of kit purchasers do not finish their kits. Much closer to home, I am one of those who did not complete a kit – in my case, a Patrol. I had wanted to build a plane since I was a teenager, and my girlfriend's dad was building a Sonerai 2. I helped him with it a few times, and thought it was the coolest thing ever. Career, kids, and other things interfered with that dream until I saw an article on the Patrol, and absolutely fell in love with it. Got a demo flight at OSH, and bought a QB kit. For the first two years, I made slow but steady progress on the fuselage. But it was a lot harder than I expected it to be. For one thing, my wife was supportive, but not particularly interested in helping me with the build. She would reluctantly drop what she was doing to come help move stuff, or hold something when I needed a second set of hands, but it wasn't enjoyable for her. And we lived out in the boonies, where it might take my EAA buddies a 1/2 hour (each way) just to drive to my house so they could help me...

The third year, I found myself spending less and less time on the project. I was frustrated with myself, and every time I walked into the shop for something else, the Patrol was there, accusing me of neglecting it. (Or at least, that's how I was feeling about it.) I got little bursts of renewed vigor on the project from time to time, but invariable I'd get well into something and run into a question I couldn't easily find an answer for, or need some help only to find my wife either gone or too busy to hep, and it would sit again for a while.

Eventually, my wife (who is very wise) said to me "You don't seem to be enjoying working on the airplane any more. Wouldn't you rather be flying something than building?" My immediate reaction was "What? Are you crazy? This has been my lifelong dream! I can't walk away from it..." But after a few weeks of careful consideration, I realized that she was absolutely right. I would love to OWN and FLY a Patrol, but I simply wasn't enjoying the building process as much as I thought I would. (Even today, that's hard to admit - much less in "public" like this...)

So I found a buyer for my kit, and moved on. I'm still here on this forum, avidly reading every post on every thread, and occasionally chiming in when I think I can contribute. But my building days are done. I now own a "backcountry capable - sort of" airplane that I enjoy flying (though nothing to compare to a Patrol!), and I've basically come to terms with the fact that I'll probably never own a Patrol. Ironically, the reason is that a completed Patrol is worth about the same $$ as those "expensive" spam cans Will mentioned.

In my case, I would have been WAY ahead if I had purchases something like a Maule or 182 and just flown it...

To be honest, this is one of my biggest concerns. Can I stick to it and build the airplane absolutely! However, I want to do something with the wife and I fear that she will start off excited and ready to help only to be disappointed with the pace and start to pull away from helping in the garage. Maybe the best bet would be to check out the local EAA chapter and see how receptive both of us are to helping another builder with their project for a few weeks before we commit to our own project.

I like to fly with her and I like to build things. But more importantly, I like to fly with her so if the right already built airplane presents itself I'd likely go that route. We actually looked at a dragonfly mark iii this past weekend and truth be told, I had bought the plane in my brain before I arrived at the airport to look it over. It looked like a decent build that needed some updating that I am comfortable with. The initial concern was weight and balance as these were originally designed as a 600-700 lb aircraft with a 1050 lb useful load. That useful load was updated in the mid 90s if the correct engine was used and it was increased to 1300 lbs. After looking over the builders paperwork it appeared the plane was built heavy, but it has a engine with twice the hp of the plans in it and the engine is within the weight limits of the upgraded engine so power was not likely going to be an issue. I asked if he had taken passengers in it previously and he said that he does regularly take others so we went for a short flight.

Almost, immediately, I knew this plane wasn't going to work. It was the most unstable thing with pitch I've ever been in. He tried to tell me it was because it was a high performance acrobatic plane. Fun fact- they aren't acrobatic. After 20 minutes of fighting the pitch and seeing that it was impossible to trim out I gave him the controls and asked to head back to the airport. Almost lost my breakfast on the return home, thanked him for his time and after further research confirming that it wasn't supposed to fly like that told him I was no longer interested.

[svyolo]

This is a good thread. I just moved my project into a hangar for final assembly. But I am going to take a few months off. Building an airplane was a dream since I was 13. Still is.


The reason to build an airplane is because you want to build an airplane. Any other reason will probably end in failure. You have to love building things. Otherwise it becomes a chore. And you stop. As I older, I like fixing things less. I would rather pay someone to do it. My passion, is building stuff. I am going to look for an airpark property for the next few months, and spend my retirement doing what I love.