Alternate Flap Lever Location 4 place?

[Berniepiet]

Has anyone engineered an alternate flap lever location for the 4 Place? Perhaps in the ceiling, a la new generation Super Cub designs? Thanks for your input.

[Nev]

I’m interested in the reason for changing the location.

Not an alternate location as such, but I’m trying to figure a way to install a gas strut to lower the loading (strength required) on the flap handle. There’s not a lot of room to play with around the flap installation. It needs to be on an off-set cam type arrangement so that there’s no force contribution at flaps up position, and full contribution at flap 3 and 4.

We did look at installing a gas strut further back in the fuselage to have it acting on the flap cable, but I now realize that won’t work. It needs to act directly on the handle itself unless we install more hardware in the flap system.

[whee]

I’m interested in the reason for changing the location.

Not an alternate location as such, but I’m trying to figure a way to install a gas strut to lower the loading (strength required) on the flap handle. There’s not a lot of room to play with around the flap installation. It needs to be on an off-set cam type arrangement so that there’s no force contribution at flaps up position, and full contribution at flap 3 and 4.

We did look at installing a gas strut further back in the fuselage to have it acting on the flap cable, but I now realize that won’t work. It needs to act directly on the handle itself unless we install more hardware in the flap system.

Offering an unsolicited opinion; Nev, your a big dude, there’s no need for you to make the flaps easier to deploy. I have zero issue extending full flaps and your a much tougher guy than I am.

[Nev]

whee Thanks Whee, I’ll try it out first !

[rodsmith]

Thought you would get some opinions on this Bernie. I will give you my thoughts. The overhead flap lever location would make for a much simpler actuation. Could be accomplished with fewer parts, less weight. If done correctly would have reasonable actuation forces. A nice feature of this location is that you can keep looking straight ahead while applying or removing flaps. I'm rather short and believe my eye line will be below the top of the instrument panel when grabbing the handle from 0 flap position. The big negative to this location is if you have an accident with flaps deployed the handle becomes another object to potentially cause a head injury. I'm pretty sure if you were going to do this you would want the handle on the left side instead of center to somewhat reduce the likelihood of that. Then you are having to swap hands from stick to flap handle when adjusting flaps.

[whee]

Thought you would get some opinions on this Bernie. I will give you my thoughts. The overhead flap lever location would make for a much simpler actuation. Could be accomplished with fewer parts, less weight. If done correctly would have reasonable actuation forces. A nice feature of this location is that you can keep looking straight ahead while applying or removing flaps. I'm rather short and believe my eye line will be below the top of the instrument panel when grabbing the handle from 0 flap position. The big negative to this location is if you have an accident with flaps deployed the handle becomes another object to potentially cause a head injury. I'm pretty sure if you were going to do this you would want the handle on the left side instead of center to somewhat reduce the likelihood of that. Then you are having to swap hands from stick to flap handle when adjusting flaps.

I had intended to share my opinion but haven’t had time. Now I can just say ditto to what Rod said. You don’t want to be swapping hands so that means either put the flap handle in the middle or put the throttle on the left side of the panel. Flap handle in the middle is one more thing to smack your head on in an accident. Throttle on the left side of the panel means few instructors will fly with you since they will not have access to the throttle. Neither are acceptable option IMO.

Take a look at Colby’s video on YouTube where he installs the flap handle on his BH5 kit. It appears to be a nice improve for this that don’t like the handle being on the floor.

[Berniepiet]

I had intended to share my opinion but haven’t had time. Now I can just say ditto to what Rod said. You don’t want to be swapping hands so that means either put the flap handle in the middle or put the throttle on the left side of the panel. Flap handle in the middle is one more thing to smack your head on in an accident. Throttle on the left side of the panel means few instructors will fly with you since they will not have access to the throttle. Neither are acceptable option IMO.

Take a look at Colby’s video on YouTube where he installs the flap handle on his BH5 kit. It appears to be a nice improve for this that don’t like the handle being on the floor.

Thanks. Where can I find that video?

[Ivan]

I can't find it either

[Utah-Jay]

This should work

https://youtu.be/9F838ydiWas

[svyolo]

I am starting with a stock flap handle. But I keep thinking a electric flaps with a big, fast(2 seconds), electric actuator is easier, simpler, and possibly lighter installation. And easier to dump the flaps after landing. I am starting out stock to see how I like it.

[Nev]

I keep thinking a electric flaps with a big, fast(2 seconds), electric actuator is easier, simpler, and possibly lighter installation.

I agree. This idea is one idea I’ve been thinking about a lot. There’s several places an actuator could go.

- Overhead has been done, and works reliably.
- In the wing root is a possibility.
- There’s also a a steel structure inside each wing where the flap springs are attached. If they’re removed I think the structure would take the loads of individual actuators in each wing. You may need a “flaps drive” type caution with this arrangement to monitor for asymmetry.

Electrical system loads would be a consideration with a larger, faster actuator.

[Berniepiet]

This should work
https://youtu.be/9F838ydiWas

Thanks UTAH Jay

[PaulSA]

If you are going to go electric, I would modify the flap drive tubes and use a carry through the cabin top to connect them and avoid the asymmetry issue. You could then fit some sort of drive motor and actuator arm in the ceiling. They are not big (soft drink can size) as they use a worm gear - which also effectively acts as a lock removing the need for the springs.

[svyolo]

If you are going to go electric, I would modify the flap drive tubes and use a carry through the cabin top to connect them and avoid the asymmetry issue. You could then fit some sort of drive motor and actuator arm in the ceiling. They are not big (soft drink can size) as they use a worm gear - which also effectively acts as a lock removing the need for the springs.

I was also thinking single actuator.

[whee]

Electric flaps are great and work well for pretty much everybody. Personally I like manual flaps because milking the flaps during a tight takeoff/climb out while trying to eek out every bit of performance possible adds another layer of fun to precision flying. That’s not possible with electric flaps but almost no one NEEDS bleeding edge performance out of their airplane.

I've thought that installing an actuator in the wing where the flaps springs are and connecting the torque tubes together would be a good method to evaluate.

My sister-in-law is a new pilot and has only flown with electric flaps and has it set in her mind that manual flaps are unacceptable. When she says that I remind her of all the flights she has canceled or had to return early from due to the flaps not working.😆 Her plane has a poorly designed plug that won’t keep a good connection.

[svyolo]

I don't really have anything against manual flaps. Simpler is better. Bob's flap system to me seems un-Bob-like. I think I would prefer an overhead handle, or electric. Both would be simpler and probably lighter, and open up space in the below the panel, and extended baggage.

I will be flying with Bob's design to start.