customer survey sort of - or request for suggestions

[Mark Goldberg]

I was visiting with a friend who has been around the homebuilt industry for 30+ years - mostly around Vans airplanes. He suggested a few places we could help make the kits easier to build for you guys. I would like to mention the areas he felt we could do more and also ask for suggestions.

Basically - the idea is to make the kits easier to build with less worry. Since the kits are not close to the 49% complete the FAA allows, we have some room to do more work on the QB kits. The intention is to do the more difficult or worrisome tasks. Not the easy stuff. I will list these ideas in no particular order to solicit your comments:

1) Delivering the kits with the wings already drilled to the fuselage with the struts and strut ends already drilled.
2) Assembling the shock struts at the factory
3) Drill/ream to final size the engine mount attach bushings welded in the fuselage.
4) Provide the L/G to fuselage fairings. Or at least a pattern.

Those are the few items we thought of and talked about. Those of you building - please give me your suggestions of what could be done with the kits to make them easier to build. We are working on improved manuals which we recognize would be a big help. I look forward to hearing your ideas. Thanks. Mark

[Archer39J]

Though I think the completion level as it is today is a good deal having the above work completed already would certainly be helpful, especially drilling the wings and struts.

My thoughts, in no particular order of importance:

Firewall pre-drilled and fit
Drill seat position holes
Pre-cast elevator balances, overcast so material can be removed per builder
Pre-cast aileron balances
Remove and epoxy trim tabs
Cut and fit wing tanks
Cut and fit wing tips

That's all I can really think of or have gotten to yet, the wings seem to be mostly done.

[tailwind]

I had acces to some special tools during the build of my plane. Without out those tools what would create problems for me when building another plane.
1. Drilling the wing to fuselage holes
2. Drilling the struts
3. Heating and pouring the lead balance for wing and elevator.

One needs to balance factory support with with the amount of work done by the builders. As we ask the factory to do more we will need to give up creativity and have more cookie cutter airplanes. The more we ask the factory to do the more we will drive up the price.

[svyolo]

Mark;
I think there is some "philosophy" involved in both the FAA's 49% rule, and also your kit and maybe Bob's intentions. I was designing my own plane when I was 16, at about the time some of the first "complete" kits like the Christen Eagle came out. The FAA stepped in and decided to regulate the "kit" market, and I see some brilliance in their intention. I also like, and agree with a lot of the way your philosophy doesn't seem to do a lot of hand holding. We, the builder, are "earning" the repairman certificate (I think that is what it is called). To truly earn that, we need to know every moving part, and every important nut and bolt and rivet. We need to understand aircraft standards, and ACS 43. If it is too "cut and paste", we will learn less.

I know others might wish for a more cookie cutter approach, but I agree with the way it is done. I am not sure if you and Bob agree together on this, and it is none of my business.

I get my kit in 4 days, but have been through the kit builder manual and every other resource I could find. My only recommendation so far for change is the #1 you recommended. It would be far less work, and less risk of miss-drilling or damaging a wing, to have the wings drilled at the factory, with easily built jigs. Many of us don't have a shop big enough to do this, and it creates a large amount of a logistical hassle for what could be done quickly, and to a much higher degree of precision, at the factory.

I was eventually going to make this recommendation in an email, after I started the kit. But since you asked................

[Bcone1381]

Mark;

I do worry some about getting the wings angle of incidence exact on both sides. I did not have any problem assembling the shock struts. I worried about applying the reamer to my engine mount bushings. Is a task with a high risk ...if it gets screwed up what does one do? But Mine went well. I reamed the engine mount on the drill press then used it as a guide for reaming the fuselage bushings. Drilling the firewall went well.

The support I get form you exceeds my expectations. I look forward to a build manual.

The firewall forward has a lot of unknowns. I personally would rather have a well designed cookie cutter panel. I believe that a well designed, standardized installation of the engine, engine controls, avionics, and electrical system, installing quality factory specified products will be better than anything I can design myself. I look for nice ideas to copy at this point. Cant wait to see your Model B and Patrol at Oshkosh.

My opinion is when the factory can remove unknowns and uncertainty, it will instill builder confidence and improve the completion rate.

[svyolo]

Brooks;
Vans has 10,000 aircraft flying, and I don't think they offer a cookie cutter prebuilt panel or FWF.They sell some subassemblies to do parts of it. Their are panel building services that will build you a panel. The BH community is way too small. Hopefully it will get bigger.

Plumbing, electrical, and FWF are all up to you. Forums are great to find ideas you like. That is why I am here, and on VAF.

[svyolo]

Their are also "builder assist" businesses. They exist to help builders. If there is a part of the build (designing your FWF) that you are not comfortable with, I am sure they would be a great help. I would do the same in a heartbeat. If, when I start working on the wings, I feel not comfortable with sheet metal work, I will take a wing to a place like that about an hour south of me. It will be money well spent.

[Tim213]

Mark,
Drilling the wings to the fuselage was although not difficult, it was stressful trying to ensure wings were in proper position before drilling. Then with the wing struts I must have measured for the dihedral twenty times before drilling. Also I am fortunate enough to build in a hangar so I had the room to mount the wings. With readers drilling the engine mounts was not an issue. As previously mentioned cutting the wing for the aux tanks is something that took a lot of time to fit with fuel fittings installed. Some builders especially those with engineering minds love the challenge of the build. Those like myself however are only building to have a great airplane to fly when we are done so any thing that makes it faster or easier is great.

[Mark Goldberg]

Thanks for all the comments guys. I am making a list of all the suggestions and will evaluate with Bob and the factory. Again - the idea is to do some of the harder tasks. I knew drilling the wings to the fuselage is a step that builders worry about. Making the lead counterweights for the elevators seems like a good suggestion. Anyway - if you have any other ideas please comment. Mark

[whee]

Mating the wings/struts/fuselage would be a HUGE plus in my opinion. That was the single most stressful part of my built thus far.

Your already working on what I feel should be the highest priority, new manuals. Hopefully you picked someone with good technical writing skills to write it.

The other options mentioned...I don’t see a need but it looks like others would appreciate it. I guess it depends on the price increase involved.

[svyolo]

Mark;
I personally also like the current methodology of selling a kit, and then up-selling the extras. I know some others may disagree but if you sold an "airplane in a box", the price would go up, and a lot of builders would buy things that they never ended up using. I guess you could expand the range of parts or subassemblies that you sell, in line with what people would prefer to buy. Several mentioned lead counterweights. I might add stuff like tail wires and more fairings. Fairings because they are a repetitive part that are easily and quickly made on a female mold, and tail wires as they are expensive when bought pre-made. Most of us don't have the equipment to do the wires "Bob style".

Overall, I Ilke how the kits and parts are currently sold. The kit price is extremely fair, even when you throw in the "extras", and that allows individuals to make or scrounge parts to keep their build cost down. Or maybe they just want to do it different.

[Flygirl1]

Mark. all you suggested I think would be great and in no way interfere with the builder getting necessary experience. I didn't build my Citabria, but could easily have performed all necessary tasks for annual inspection and or any repairs. The more done, the sooner the builder is now a flyer, which I think is the goal here. Although I know a few who just enjoy the build--they are plans build people. Vans has a huge amount of flying airplanes for a reason. One thing I would have liked to at least have access to is more fiberglass or metal parts. Making a nice looking cowl lip out of metal was an impossibility for us and the same goes for the landing gear at the fuselage and belly. We spent a lot of time and effort trying. Fiberglass did the job, but what a messy pain in the neck. It took a little effort getting the windshield fiberglass fairing and strut fairing to fit, but it works and I didn't have to make it. Also it was a real pain to have to listen to the guy across the taxi way constantly say "you had to make that, my Rans S7 came with it."

[Mark Goldberg]

Good points Donna. But at the end of the day your airport neighbor has a Rans and you have a beautiful BH Patrol. MG

[Flygirl1]

You bet!! As nice as his looks and fly's, I think deep down he wishes he had the gumption to start a Patrol. ;-) Although he keeps upping the anti. He just took the floats off and put 850's on. Makes our 700"s look kinda wimpy. Looks like 850's are in our future. Gotta keep up with the neighbors!! ;-)

[rodsmith]

I haven't tackled installing the flaps and ailerons yet. Seems like it is something that gives people issues getting everything lined up properly. Maybe with everything jigged up you could install and drill the hinges. Just a thought.

[JimParker256]

Mark,

First, to the philosophy... I went into this "thinking" I knew what I was getting into. I had helped a few other folks build portions of RVs, Sonex, and other "cookie-cutter" kits, and thought "Gee, how much more complicated could it be?" The reality is that it's a good bit more complex and challenging than I realized - having never built anything from "just" a set of plans - complete as they may be. I am enjoying the challenges, but that does not mean that I would feel "cheated" in any way if the process itself were better defined. To that end, by far the biggest impact in "builder assist" to me would be something resembling a build manual for the Patrol. The "Bob Book" is extremely sparse, and the "Builder's Assistance Manual" offers some help, but since it's for the 4-place, none of the pictures match up to exactly what I am looking at, so it often leaves me with as many questions as answers. I think having a manual would help tremendously. I keep worrying that I'll forget to do something out of ignorance that will be extremely difficult to do at a later point.

So my #1 (with a bullet) headline request would be for a model-specific build manual. Now on to your list:

1) I would vote "YES" for the wing/fuse pre-drilling. It's something I'm already very nervous about doing right, and I'm still a ways away from it. If it had been available, I would have gladly paid a bit more for it...
2) On the landing gear shocks, I'm of two minds... It took me 10 hours over the course of two days to get the first one done. At that point I would have probably paid a good price for someone to deliver me a completed set... Then I did the second one, and it took me all of 2 hours. So there was definitely a learning curve, but now I'm 100% confident in my ability to rebuild a shock if/when I ever need to. But it would still be nice to have the option to order an assembled shock, in case I really want one faster than I could get it together. (Especially if I'm up in Idaho or somewhere, away from my shop...)
3) The engine mount bolts were a PITA, and drilling through the firewall was "scary" for fear of ruining an obviously expensive part. I would definitely think that would be a big enhancement to the kit.
4) Those fairings would also be nice, even if it were just an "optional extra" like some of the other things. I'm just not very good with fiberglass. Fortunately, I've got a friend who is, and may be willing to help when the time comes.

As others have said, pre-cast elevator counter-weights would be a nice option to offer. I bought the lead to do this, but the combination of my wife being nervous about lead fumes and me being nervous about getting enough / too much in there keeps pushing this task down the road...

And as several have stated, my preference would be for all these things to be "add-ons" to the kit, for those of us who are less certain about what we're doing. For others, who have fewer trepidations, keeping the kit cost down would obviously be preferable.

Thanks! (And I second the comments about the great support you provide to your kit builders, when we finally get over ourselves and give you a call... Sometimes it's just hard to admit defeat...)

[davzLSA]

Hey Mark, Thanks for taking suggestions. I dont really have anything to speak about as far as the kits go but as a plans builder I think it is great that I have the option of buying assemblies from you, I dont know how much control you have over this but I believe the plans could be improved. There are many grey areas in the plans that pretty much just leave us guessing. I enjoy building from scratch but more details in the plans would make the task easier. If you or Bob would be interested in doing this I as well as other plans builders can offer specific suggestions on specific plans sheets that could be improved. Thanks for all your great support you do offer for all of us builders.

[sbmurphey]

Thanks for the topic Mark. I think your focus was on the full kit. At the risk of being slightly out of scope, I think a fittings kit would be a high value option for all parties and a natural progression to offer the tubing kit market. It could include items such as tabs, tail,gear, strut and wing attach fittings, etc.. All of those small part that could be cut in a couple hours via CNC would save hours in the shop for builders.

[Flygirl1]

Another thought: I wish I would have taken the time to write on the plans as we were building the list of hardware, including sizes with attention to lengths we needed for that portion of the build. Your hardware kit was a "good start" though. Having to measure each piece to decide what to order made for some frustrations at times. Also ordering those things as needed increased the shipping costs. ( I don't really want to know how much we spent in shipping over the years we were building. Should of bought stock stock in UPS) So if anybody wants to take the time to makes lists on their plans as they are building and send it to Mark, that would be a great help to future builders and the kit.

[Bcone1381]

I will share mine.