Kit vs Plans

[Weldingiron]

Good evening everybody!

As I continue to research the Bearhawk and its construction, I find myself more and more drawn to it. I've considered a scratch build and a kit and some days I feel confident that I could build from scratch and others I can't imagine not having the security of the QB kit, as I have no experience in fabrication. I consider myself fairly mechanically inclined in that I do some woodworking, nearly all maintenance on my older vehicles, and have avionics experience from the Air Force, however, I have never welded, or worked with sheet metal. My options right now seem to be get started fairly soon on a scratch build and slowly sink money into what will likely be a 10 year project, or save money for the next few years and go with the QB kit. This would be for a 4 place if it matters. So my questions to those of you with far more wisdom and knowledge than I currently possess:

1. Would you suggest a scratch build to someone of my fairly limited experience, or does that open the door to having an unsafe aircraft? In other words, will it be obvious if I mess up on something and provide the opportunity to fix it before proceeding, or is it easy to have significant mistakes and only find out when the FAA conducts their inspection?

2. If a mix of scratch and kit was used, what parts would you guys suggest be saved for the professionals to fabricate and what parts would make sense to scratch build?

3. Assuming a scratch build is chosen, what assemblies would you recommend to start with if the goal is to maintain a practical build process?

4. Where can a tool listing be found?

Those are the only ones I can think of off the top of my head and I appreciate and welcome everyone's input. I may add more questions as answers come in. Thanks again everyone!

Todd
Las Vegas

[Chris In Milwaukee]

Good questions, and ones that are often contemplated by newcomers. A lot of soul searching goes into your decision.

The skills needed aren’t that difficult to acquire, but it can take a bit if time to refine. If you’re mechanically inclined, you’re already ahead of the game.

In January, EAA has SportAir Workshops in Oshkosh which is a two-day dive into specific skills. Sheet metal is a great one to do first since the wings are usually the first task in the build process. They do travel, the workshops, so check EAA’s web site to see if they’re coming to a location near you.

Scratch building is time consuming. If I had to do it differently, and was looking for a combination of scratch and kit built, I’d get the kit wings for sure, and scratch build the fuselage. Then I’d buy some of the prefab components that Mark offers, like landing gear and a few others.

For a quick overview of the scratch build process, check out Eric Newton’s build site at

https://www.mybearhawk.com

It will give you a good idea what’s involved.

It’s a time vs money argument all the way. My CFO appreciates the cash outlay of a scratch build project.

Good luck with your choices!

Chris

[Battson]

Even a kitset plane is a lot of work, that is true for any plane design not just the Bearhawk. I think a scratch build is more work than most people can even imagine, especially while they are romancing themselves with the idea of an aircraft...

The best advice I had was to "just buy a kit". The time saved is worth the cost of the kit many times over. If you value your own time at anything more than a few dollars per hour, the kit is cheaper. The kit is exceptionally cost effective in terms of your lifetime!

The cold honest fact about scratch builds is that most people do not finish for some reason. Those who do finish are a special breed, with abundant free time, a stable lifestyle, supportive family, and a stubborn perseverance or love of building for building's sake.

See this article, it covers it pretty well: http://www.kitplanes.com/homebuilder...ebuilders.html

Personally, I wanted to enjoy flying a Bearhawk. I would not have enjoyed a long term construction project. Now I am flying for a few years, I am very glad I bought the kit. I couldn't afford it at the time, but we found ways to make it work by syndication with friends.

[Weldingiron]

I really do enjoy building, and I think even if I never got to fly, I could enjoy building for the sake of creating something, which is one reason I think scratch building would be the way to go. That said, flying is certainly the end goal. For me also, finding the money to get the kit all at once would be something of a challenge, but I understand that from a purely logical standpoint, working some overtime to buy the kit would probably be more efficient than a scratch build. I appreciate the response!

[Weldingiron]

Chris,

Thanks for the reply! The primary benefit that I see in the scratch build is the ability to manage the cash flow a (relatively) small amount at a time, and I know the wife would approve of that. I've spent a lot of time looking at Mr. Newton's website and I think it is incredible. His page actually has actually been one of the driving factors in me thinking of doing a scratch build. I think my two main worries with the scratch build are that I'll either complete it with a sub-par product, or that I'll get $5000 and countless hours in and wish I'd have just saved for a kit. Did you find it difficult to get a straight fuselage with your scratch build or was it fairly straight forward? Thanks again!

Todd

[Chris In Milwaukee]

I'm still in the wing building stage, so can't comment on the fuselage part. If you're young enough and have all of the things going for you that Battson described above, then scratch building is probably okay. But Eric Newton built like a mad man and was able to complete his plane in 4-5 years. Most of the scratch builders seem to be heading down a 10-year path, myself included, presuming life doesn't get in the way.

I'm with Battson, in that I really like flying. So much so that I bought another plane while I'm building so my skills didn't get rusty in the process. If I could own this plane *and* buy a kit, I probably would. But with a kiddo about to start college next year, and the other one shortly afterward, that's not going to happen, I'm afraid. So I continue scratch building.

In the mean time, I also improve my skills in the various areas needed to build the plane. I live only an hour from Oshkosh, so I go to the SportAir Workshops to stay fresh. I've taken all of the workshops, some of them twice. But it's a great way to stay "current", have fun, and stay motivated.

~Chris

[Weldingiron]

I certainly wouldn't hold myself to any time table with a scratch build. I'm quite a ways from OSH but there is an EAA chapter here with monthly meetings. I may look into dropping in on one of those and trying to meet some people. I noticed DesertBearhawk is here in Las Vegas and I've sent him a message on his aircraft's FB page. So far no response but I imagine he stays pretty busy. Another concern of mine is space right now. And I may be moving in the next year. I'm not opposed to dragging along lots of ribs or other relatively small parts but would like to hold off on hauling a fuselage frame across country if it could be avoided. Perhaps this just means I need to hold off a bit to begin and I'm jumping the gun. I remember being 3 or 4 and watching the film 'Alaska' in which the dad has a Super Cub on floats. Since I first saw that movie I knew one day I was going to be a pilot, and I was going to have something I could do back country flying in. Just hopefully with better results than he had in the movie, haha!

[davzLSA]

Hi Todd,
I have never built a tube and fabric plane before but I have built an RV4 so I have experience with sheet metal and aluminum. I am no expert and am kind of in the same boat as you. Currently I am building a LSA. To start with I would suggest you join the EAA. The reason for that is all the educational material they offer. And the local chapter can offer lots of help too if it is an active chapter. You should also build you a library of books, Start with the AC43.13, its an FAA publication,Then you need to study welding and equip yourself and practice. You can buy bundles of cutoff tubing from aircraft spruce to practice on. Bob Barrows recommends oxy/acetylene welding on his designs. The FAA website has tons of free material that is very helpful. Of course this forum is also a great resource. There are many guys on here who have built all the different models of the Bearhawk and will share anything they know. Btaz has been most helpful to me as he has built and flown his LSA. In my project I have decided to do a mix of scratch build and buying parts from Avipro. Some parts are easier to build than others. I only do what I am comfortable with. One of the good things about scratch building is that you can build a part as many times as it takes to get it right. For scratch building start with the easy parts like a rudder pedal or a horizontal stab. I know it is more expensive to build a part more than one time but you have to think of it as you are paying for your education. But you can save a lot of money making your own parts. Another thing is time, the bought parts can save lots of time but if you are like me the fun of the fabrication is one of the reasons I chose to scratch build. And I do enjoy fabricating some of my own parts. As far as tools I would suggest you look at the particular task task hand to guide you in the selection of a particular tool. You will need measuring instruments and of course hand tools like wrenches and sockets, drill, hole cutters, files, a bench grinder, a hand grinder, drill press, taps, dies, a metal cutting band saw, drill, drill bits, and as you build you will need machine work done on some parts and if you want to build your own shock struts you would need a lathe. You can buy those but they are very expensive. As I said you just have to pick and chose which parts you want to make and which ones you want to buy. And of course you will need the space to build it. I have a 24x27 shop and it is a very tight fit. As you know you can never have enough space. This is my retirement project so I do not put any time constraints on my project and I am taking my time building it. I also consider it as an education, I am learning a lot of things in the process and meeting a lot of great people in the process. I hope I have helped you. You have chosen a great resource in coming to this forum. Im sure you will be hearing for lots of other guys here with better advise than I have offered. So welcome aboard.

David Swann

[Bcone1381]

I put a link below to a discussion that took place on this topic. I suggest you read Post #30 by Glenn Patterson. It is the best write up I have read on the topic.

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[Mark Goldberg]

I thought Glenn's post was so well thought out we put it on our website. Mark

[PaulSA]

I have previously built an RV-10 but have no experience with welding. To be honest, even though I trained at university as a mechanical engineer, I would not consider attempting to build straight from the plans. What I did consider was to buy the rib and spar kit for the wings and scratch build those. If you want to spread the cost then this would be a good way to do it. In the end, I just went for the quick build kit and am glad I did - excellent quality and goes together real quick. Still plenty of head-scratching and wok to do!

[BTAZ]

Some background.

I plans built an LSA over a span of about three years(didn't want to count but probably averaged 40 hours/week while working full time the first two years, probably over 60 hrs/week the last year). Purchased the fish mouthed tubing kit and tail ribs from Mark(which were excellent) but pretty much made the rest. If you go to the "Plans Built LSA" forum and find my "First Flight" thread you can see my build logs.

I went into it with a solid set of tools and a decent mechanical background(machining experience, some gas welding skills from a community college class 20 years in the rear view) but no real sheet metal, riveting, or steel tube fabrication background.

So my observations(worth what you pay for them).

1. There are a lot of quicker, more financially astute ways to get an airplane then either scratch or kit building if you truly want an airplane. Taking a second job and paying cash in four years for a completed plane will be about the same amount of time commitment and you would likely still have a plane sooner than if you started scratch(or even kit) building today. Granted the purchased plane likely wouldn't be as capable as a Bearhawk nor will you have the satisfaction of saying "I built that" but you will get that many more years of your life with a flying airplane instead of in the shop.

2. If the airplane is a "nice, someday reward" but you primarily want to learn new skills to an "Aviation quality" level, plans build. For me, it was sort of like a Capstone course for the skills acquired over my lifetime of dabbling in mechanical things.

3. If you can spend ten hours on an assembly, then take a step back and say to yourself "That's a piece of crap" and throw it in the lessons learned pile. that's a start. If you can do that twice in a row and still build the third one with enthusiasm, plans building might be for you.

4. If you are willing to show your worst workmanship to your mentor(s) or here on the forum and accept their judgment without becoming defensive, plans building might work out. I was lucky in that I have a longtime IA friend. Like in the cartoons, I felt a little animated caricature of him on my shoulder keeping me honest. If I made/saw something that I thought he might find questionable, into the lessons learned pile it went.

5. For me, I made the decision early on that I would trade "savings from not purchasing a kit" into the best tools I could buy as well as any specialty tools that would help with the task. For example, if you want to skin both wings at the same time for efficiency, plan on investing $500 or more in clecos. I couldn't have built many of the items efficiently(or at all) without my mill and lathe which you probably wouldn't need for a kit build. Granted the "At all" parts could be purchased from Mark but the "Efficiently made" items would take more time/effort.

6. If you have demonstrated some mechanical aptitude, and have recognized the skills you haven't yet acquired, then you are already well positioned to plans build. None of the skills are difficult to learn, but making a conscious effort to learn them and being willing to pay for those skills in time and scrapped material is key.

[Battson]

I put a link below to a discussion that took place on this topic. I suggest you read Post #30 by Glenn Patterson. It is the best write up I have read on the topic.

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That's a great link to share here, Bcone. Good thought.

I definitely agree with Glenn's final statement. There is a prevailing belief that scratch building is cheaper, and that is probably true for someone who already owns all the gear and has local access to materials. Talking with friends who have started scratch building from a zero base, the scratch build is hardly any cheaper when you have to start with nothing at all. Like everything in aviation, there is no free lunch. You always get what you pay for.

I tricked myself into thinking I could build the plane for only 50% of what it eventually cost in the end. There are so many 10%'s which a beginner might forget to account for, like hardware, tools, shipping, consumables, paint. Those five things alone added several tens of thousands to my project. I am sure with a scratchbuild I would have needed to double the shipping, consumables, paint, and tools costs.

[Weldingiron]

Thank you to everyone for the responses so far! I checked out Glen's post and definitely had good information. I've come to the conclusion that logically, I should probably go with the kit. Financially I know the only benefit to a plans build, especially with the level of practice I'd need, would be the ability to spread it out more. When logic is removed and the heart gets a chance to speak, my love of making things and learning and using more skills still suggests a plans build may not be a terrible idea. In short, I don't think I'm any closer to making a decision, but you guys have all given me great information and more to think about. I may need to look for a small project that uses the same skillsets to do and see if it is something I would like and stick with. If so, I'll already have a lot of the equipment and if not, at least I'll have something to show for it. Thanks again everyone for all the information.

[stinger]

Weldingiron, I am presently building the LSA, I am on my fourth year and this is my fourth project . My third plans build. I once researched the completion rate of plans built , it was less than point five percent ! Stinger

[Weldingiron]

That's disheartening! So worst case scenario, if you were to get several years into it and decided you couldn't or didn't want to finish, would you be stuck with a big static display that you would end up selling for scraps or as long as you did quality work is there a market for partially built aircraft?

[jaredyates]

Not based on any real numbers, my impression over time is that partially-built scratch projects are able to sell for an amount less than or similar to the cost of the raw materials involved.

[Chewie]

That doesn't mean the quitting rate is 90%.

[jaredyates]

I may need to look for a small project that uses the same skillsets to do and see if it is something I would like and stick with. If so, I'll already have a lot of the equipment and if not, at least I'll have something to show for it.

You might consider going to the weekend SportAir workshops for aluminum, fabric, and welding. Those would give you a good solid foundation on the skills, plus enough practical experience to get a taste of each skill. I haven't done the whole weekend workshops, but found that the short workshops at Oshkosh and Sun-N-Fun were really motivating for my wife and me both.

[Gerhard Rieger]

Hi, I've been at it for 7 years, 3 months, I have manufactured all the parts, seats and complete interior. To tell you its a lot of work is an understatement, I would like to build another aircraft after this one, but it will be a kit. It was a awesome experience and I would not have it any other way, Think twice before you do the scratch build. Estimated cost for the build will be about $50 000

[Bdflies]

Weldingiron, let me take a stab at this. If you're looking at the Bearhawk as an airplane that fits your needs, buy a kit. If you're thinking that you'll spend a couple years of 'spare time' to build a plane, buy a kit. If you just can't wait to have a Bearhawk, to fly your family to the greatest camping spots, buy a flying Bearhawk.
But, if you take great pride in learning new skills and marvel in drilling a dozen equally spaced holes, you might be a scratch builder. If you have an airplane to keep your skills sharp, you might be a scratch builder. If you find great pleasure in reading/interpreting a drawing and turning that drawing into a finely crafted object, you might be a scratch builder. If you have the patience of Job and don't have any "Honey do's" in your future, you might be a scratch builder. If you honestly understand that a flying airplane is incidental to the process of building from plans, you might be a scratch builder.
I truly don't intend to discourage building from plans. I have the greatest respect that you can imagine, for an individual who builds an airplane, from plans and flies it. I truly marvel at the skillset, patience and perseverance of those folks. I also understand that those folks are special and rare. It's not as glamorus as you think. Scratch building TRULY is a labor of love.

Bill

[BTAZ]

We need to start a "You might be a scratch builder if" thread

[Bdflies]

That's a great idea!