Oratex nightmare

[mpillor]

There's enough money at stake to get an attorney involved if they don't cure the nonconforming goods. They should be given a reasonable time to cure by either sending a roll that matches the ones you didn't use, or 3 matching rolls if they can't match them. I'm an attorney, and I really don't like the idea of seeing attorneys involved in this type of activity (experimental airplane building). It doesn't sound to me as if you have any contractual relationship with the "Germans." Get some advice from an attorney in your state.

[svyolo]

I don't want to get into the fight with the manufacturer, but a friend of mine who managed/taught body work all his life taught me a bit about cosmetics.

If you can put like color next to each other it is a good thing. Put a different color on top of ailerons/flaps, and under horizontal stab and bottom of fuselage. If you have a few areas that have to be next to each other. Color match and paint the offending areas. Maybe one side of rudder/vertical stab, and the top of one elevator and horizontal stab. Only areas with the same sun angle with ever be judged on color matching. Bottom of horizontal stab and top of ailerons/flaps are rarely seen. Same for the bottom of the fuselage. Improvise, overcome, and adapt.

[svyolo]

Experimental aviation is a small community, unfortunately. One of the positive effects of that is few companies will risk a bad rep for bad quality control or customer service. If they do, they won't last long. The yacht hardware business was similar. I was amazed how companies fell backwards over themselves to help out a customer, in many cases somebody that bought a boat with their hardware, but was not a direct customer. Even epuipment way out of warranty. 99% were like that. The few that weren't exist only in the annals of yachting history, and used chandlery shops.

[alaskabearhawk]

I was at the trade show with Mark and listened to the conversation between him and Lars. According to Lars the covering in question was sold at a substantial discount because they were factory seconds and it was made plain to the customer they were seconds. There are always two sides to every story.

[PaulSA]

I strongly suspect that after a few weeks out in the sun, you won't be able to tell the difference........

[Zzz]

I strongly suspect that after a few weeks out in the sun, you won't be able to tell the difference........

And after a few months the stuff is hanging like the skin under Grandma's chin...

We're really going to rely on fading of a product that's supposed to withstand ultraviolet? What makes you think there's some equilibrium color to be achieved by that?

[jim.mclaughlin924]

Even though I probably lean toward function over looks, I am just not an Oratex fan, but have no experience with it. It does seem a bit odd to see "seconds" are sold for aircraft use if it is not clear what causes it to be a second or that the Manufacturer/Retailer would want this on the market. It is a red flag when the retailer needs to go to another country for customer service.

I have covered 3 of my exp. planes with polyfiber/polytone and consider it to be hard to beat for amateurs, if a gloss finish is not required. At least mistakes are easy and cheap to fix, since most of the expense is in the coatings. I have never had any problem with colors from multiple cans matching, even paint purchased years later for touch up seemed to be perfect.. I never noticed fading after 10 years (hangered most of the time).

I agree with Mark that it is appropriate to contact the seller before posting on a forum, but the first post indicates this had happened, without satisfaction.

[Bcone1381]

I will bet dollars to donuts that Better Aircraft Fabric makes things right. We builders are dependent on the services of small niche businesses with high overhead. I was a bit judgmental in post #6. I am giving them a chance and am grateful for risk taking business men (including Mark G. & Bob B.) who help and support our efforts.

[N3UW]

We definitely have two side to the story and I fully believe both parties fully believe their side. This is where clear disclosures as to what you are buying could have possibly prevented this. If the sales document said .”product is seconds and no warranty on cosmetic condition” or “product is sold as is” , “ buyer is responsible for inspecting product”. Without something like that, I might have gone under the same assumption as you. Assuming nothing like that was stated, I would think there is some shared blame. I would think it would be reasonable for the seller to accept the return of the unused material and give a full refund and the builder will have to deal with the time and cost of the removal of the material.

[Battson]

I don't buy the fading colour comments.

I think they've sent your the wrong colour for one roll. They do a range of "white" colours right?

In that case, it's 100% their mistake and they owe you a new roll.

Whatever happens, the thing they really DON'T want are stories of appalling customer service spreading around the internet. If you make enough noise about it, and keep asking to speak to the next manager up, they will make the problem go away eventually. I hate that fact, but it's true so often!

[muleyman78]

Well after a few weeks of debates we still have not received a resolution. To address the questions about the fabric being seconds..... I am aware that I bought a second grade fabric but when talking with Oratex sales I asked dozens of questions about the fabric. One of those was if the color would be the same and what kind of imperfections are average. They promised me that the color would never be an issue and that the imperfections were never allowed to leave the factory unless the defect was smaller than 1-8 inch and no more than one defect every 3 meters. Where this gets complicated is that the 3 rolls were all packaged individually. We opened the 1st roll and covered surfaces and it wasn't till the second roll was opened that we noticed a difference. Lars has done little but argue with me to this point as well as cus the Germans for their holidays every other week. Paul on the other hand called me and was much easier to deal with. He told me that the factory finally admits they made a mistake. Paul asked me what would make this right and I told him if they bought all the paint and had it delivered then I would let it go and move on and accept the additional maintenance and labor it will incur. That was a few days ago and still haven't heard if they accepted this option.

[muleyman78]

That being said... We have covered 40% of the plane and im happy with the product so far.

[kenryan]

Just noticing this thread ... I bought fabric from Lars. My experience was completely positive. As far as I am concerned, Lars is great when it comes to customer service. He spent a lot of time with me, and was nothing but helpful. After covering the SS with Oratex, I would not even consider legacy fabric systems.

On the other hand, posting to a forum a thread with the title "Oratex Nightmare" before you even give the guy a chance ... for that I have zero respect.

--Ken Ryan, currently building a SuperSTOL but looking at Bearhawk LSA for next project.

[alaskabearhawk]

Well said...

[JimParker256]

Question for Jared - can thread titles be changed by the originator? Or does it require moderator action.

PS - I kind of agree with Ken and alaska... Thread title seems a bit "over the top"...

[jaredyates]

I should know the answer to that Jim, but I don't. I'm happy to help if a change is the desire of the OP but will not pressure him to do so.

[Peter Bishton]

Guys didn't Jon Whee change the title of a post a few weeks back? One day it was there and the next day we were reading but with a different title but same topic?
Regards
Peter

[Gerhard Rieger]

Some of us have lots of money and other have less. the ones with lots work just as hard as those with less. I think some have an option to start all over while others don't. it will delay their projects for a long time. It is actually a very difficult thing to comment on when you saved up money and things go wrong. there is a general way of thought that all people that own or build their own aircraft have lots of money. well thats not true! We can all learn from this even if you do not have a lot of money to sometimes just be patient a little longer and then buy the first grade material. The fact that they stated that it is seconds leaves a big door open for debate on a lot of flaws that can be covered under that understanding. It is sad that a man's pride and joy might not come out the way he planned and I also think that the suppliers have to meet him somewhere to help him get it done so that they would not look bad and the customer gets a decent job done. I suggest what Svyolo suggested, and if you need any material for example to do a flap top and bottom and short for let say the bottom the suppliers should help you out there with what match up.