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IO-360 prices

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  • IO-360 prices

    I know this is very subjective --- I see an IO-360 a1c --- been sitting for 3 or 4 years---- no log books - no history known---appears to be all there---
    My understanding is that it would be considered a core due to no logs--- no longer in the host aircraft -- (don't know why its not)
    What would most of you consider a viable price in that situation ?
    Since the case and/or crank is unknown...…. what does that do to the core price ??????

    Any ideas ?
    Last edited by fairchild; 12-04-2018, 03:59 PM.

  • #2
    If there is no history or logs to see what was done to the engine it may not be a bargain at any price. Better to go with an engine that has a history as it may give a clue to its condition. We bought an engine with 800 hours on it that had complete logs. We could see the compression checks were consistent and the service done. Last thing that a person would want is an engine that may have been pulled and set aside after a prop strike. I would think that if the logs were not saved to hold the value of the engine that could be a red flag. Our engine was at an aircraft maintenance shop as the owner was putting larger engines on. He allowed the mechanics to pull a cylinder so we could see the internal condition as well. Happy so far


    • #3
      Yes-- seems like there is all ways a "good" story why there are no logs..... Maybe true - maybe not ----
      He wants about 8K for it. I see currently some 540's on barnstormers for 8 k.
      The 360 could have a bad crank and case---- if it were like that - you would be left with the accessories and maybe rods--- the rest would just get thrown away.
      I would think about 1500 would be more like it with no logs and no other info---

      I am planning on an overhaul-- but I want a good crank and case at least have something to start with. I would think it would be pretty critical to know how many
      hours are on the cylinders. They sound like one of the shortest lived parts.



      • #4
        I wouldn’t buy ANY core engine without a guarantee on the engine and case.

        It took me buying two core engines to learn that leason😐
        Scratch Built 4-place Bearhawk. Continental IO-360, 88” C203 McCauley prop.


        • Rollie
          Rollie commented
          Editing a comment
          I'll second that. I bought an IO 360 from Wentworth who guaranteed the case and crank. Everything was fine, but if it hadn't been rebuildable they would have traded me for parts that would work for overhaul. (At least they said they would and I have no reason to doubt that) Going rate for a core seemed to be 10k when I was looking. Unless you just want to build it yourself (I did - with much help from an A&P who does overhauls and I'm happy with the end result) I think you can just have Bob build you whatever you want and come out cheaper than buying a core and having it overhauled.

      • #5
        There MAY be a logbook--- ( I am told now) The story is that the engine was removed from a flying aircraft about 3 or 4 years ago to be installed in a kit which never got built. So it has been sitting 3 or 4 years. Looks like it has the plugs in - so it has not had the desiccators in the holes. Supposedly in a hanger--- of unknown humidity.
        Assuming the logbook exists--- I guess it would depend on the remaining hours and the possibilities of corrosion from sitting. they want 7500 for it. It is an A2B which I understand takes
        aa fixed pitch prop. Will be awhile before an engine is needed.....



        • #6
          I’d pass on this one. For $8,000 you need to have some assurance that you will have a good core. 3 or 4 years sitting around without pickling will mean rusty cylinders (that may be salvageable or not) and probably pitted cam/lifters. Call Bob Barrows; he is in the business and can help you find a good core.


          • #7
            Even if your used engine ends up having a good case and crank, it is amazing how fast other parts can add up. Mine had a bad governor gear and another gear that I can't recall. $1300 just for those two. I was lucky that overall the engine was in great condition.


            • #8
              all else being equal - I'd just as soon have a 540----
              This thing is being sold by people who know nothing about aircraft stuff--- they think its just ready to bolt on an go flying. Even if I liked it--- that situation looks like a
              hopeless trainwreck looking for a place to happen.


              • zkelley2
                zkelley2 commented
                Editing a comment
                Then run.

                If the case and crank are unknown it's virtually worthless. You'd just be gambling.
                You'd be better off getting a core from a reputable salvage yard. At least then you know what you're getting into.

            • #9
              My choice to buy a rebuild from Bob was driven by my lack of confidence in my ability to buy a used engine or core. If I had a lifetime spent involved in the local aviation community, and a local engine came up for sale, I could probably buy it as somebody I knew would have known the circumstances.

              Buying a used engine online from a stranger? Sometimes trying to save money can cost you a lot. I have been down that road too many times.


              • #10
                YES---- to all of that.....

                Im thinking of a high time , first run (if possible) core that hasn't been off the firewall too long (a year or less) ----- best if no prop strikes being the reason for removal.
                maybe im asking for the moon :-)


                • #11
                  Originally posted by fairchild View Post
                  all else being equal - I'd just as soon have a 540----

                  The most important decision you make is to decide between an O-360 or an O-540 variant. Even if that special IO-360-A1C is a perfect specimen and acquired for a song and a dance, it may not be what your mission demands. Even after the 360/540 engine selection is made, there are so many variants of them out there, its makes my head spin. Many won't work, or demand compromises. (wide/narrow decks, soild/hollow crank, there different engine mounts, parallel or angle valve, accessory options like a prop governor pad, the list goes on.)

                  Careful Study these variations will help you make decide on a dream engine for you. Dream up what you want, then search out YOUR solution without compromise.

                  Its so easy to call Bob, and follow his lead, and end up with a no compromise solution. He made the engine section similar to buying a new car...."I'll take a blue one with air-conditioning, power windows, and a moon roof."

                  In one of Mike Busch's webinars he said that the average undamaged Lycoming crank will be serviceable for 7 overhauls.....that might be up to 14,000 hours. That statistic eliminated concern about how old the crank might be for me. Bob can build engines to "new tolerances" (not "service tolerances"), with new cylinders, and new cam for what I thought was a very reasonable upcharge. If its rebuilt to new limits, to me it eliminated additional dilemma of finding a first run engine recently removed an airframe. If you go with Bob, explore all the options with him and get the 'color' you want.

                  Yet the process of studying all the variants may help you end up with a refined and better solution.
                  Brooks Cone
                  Southeast Michigan
                  Patrol #303, Kit build


                  • #12
                    I haven't heard of any unhappy customers of Bob's engines. At least one Bearhawk builder bought a "freshly overhauled" engine that turned out to be junk. I'm participating in the overhaul of my engine with a very experienced engine builder. Probably going to be more expensive than one from Bob.


                    • #13
                      Originally posted by rodsmith View Post
                      I haven't heard of any unhappy customers of Bob's engines. At least one Bearhawk builder bought a "freshly overhauled" engine that turned out to be junk. I'm participating in the overhaul of my engine with a very experienced engine builder. Probably going to be more expensive than one from Bob.
                      I can see one solid reason to not buy an engine from Bob: if you need it right now and can't accept his lead time. Another is if you are wanting to buy a fancy top-of-the-line hot rod/modified engine that has been run in on a dyno find the associated price to be acceptable. (thinking about something like the 409 ci 4-cylinder, what Rob C. is ordering etc) Bob doesn't have a dyno or test stand at his shop for sure and I haven't asked if he could gain access to one.

                      I spent about two weeks researching engine options, which was long enough to realize that one could spend years researching engines and still not know as much as Bob. So I decided to trust him to build a good engine, just as I trusted him to design a good airplane. So far it is working out well.

                      Regarding the auto discussion... at some point in the process, most of us begin to think of Lycomings and Continentals as ancient antiquated machines. While they don't employ some of the technology that modern cars use, they certainly do employ monumental piles of technology. After reading books like the Sky Ranch Engineering Manual and Fly the Engine, and reading some of Kevin Cameron's writing about racing motorcycle engines, I started to appreciate their extraordinary complexity. Where I am in the process currently, I do not think of them as ancient antiquated machines at all. It is definitely normal to pass into that phase, though most folks also pass out of it.

                      We've got a good collection of discussion about engine selection in the archives, but to summarize from my perspective, there are good reasons and bad reasons to select an engine other than a Lycoming 360 or 540. Some of these don't apply when selecting a continental, but some do. If someone who has executed one of the few flying Bearhawk successful auto conversions and doesn't agree, I'll happily defer to your experience.

                      Reasons that will probably pay off:
                      There is no pre-engineered aviation engine available in the size, weight, and HP needed (not the case with the Bearhawk line)
                      You like to tinker and want to learn and advance the cause of experimentation in spite of the downsides.
                      You are value money very highly and don't value your time much at all.
                      You are not troubled by adding a year or more to the build time, and are willing to accept less HP and more weight.
                      You are flight testing in an area where you can safely execute off-airport landings following unexpected loss of thrust (Illinois, North Dakota?).
                      You'll find enjoyment from engineering and fabricating your own intake, exhaust, fuel metering, ignition, cowling, mounting, and monitoring systems, and in engineering some method of connecting the crank to the prop. Or you are willing to pay someone to do those things (unlikely, based on the previous valuation of time vs money).
                      You are satisfied with the prop offerings that are available to be mounted to that system.

                      Red Flags/Reasons where you will probably be dissapointed:
                      You think you'll save money (and your time is worth something materially greater than zero).
                      You think you'll end up with a more reliable engine.
                      You think you'll end up with better power for the weight.
                      You think that's the only way you can run auto gas.
                      You think by extracting the one small piece of the extraordinarily-engineered overall automotive propulsion system (intake, exhaust, metering, ignition, mounting, transmission, etc) and sticking it into a system that you or someone else has engineered (or is still engineering) on a very small volume, that you'll be able to reap the benefits of the overall automotive package for reliability, performance, and ease of use.
                      You don't see that there is much difference between the way an airplane runs and engine and the way a car runs an engine (prolonged time at max RPM etc)

                      I haven't spent time with all of the auto converters yet, but the ones that I have spent time with have led me to these conclusions. This is one of many cases where I'm happy to be proven wrong but unfortunately it is rare.


                      • rodsmith
                        rodsmith commented
                        Editing a comment
                        Excellent, well thought out post!

                    • #14
                      AFAIC...…. reliability is everything. That means lyc. or cont. then its just the weight-HP tradeoff. Next would be HP/$ . Beyond that--- im too far out to narrow more yet.
                      Im thinking an injected Lyc.360, or a cont. I-O 360, or 470, Lyc 540 possibly-- but too bar out to do any hemorrhaging over it yet. :-)

                      count me OUT on anything having a PRSU. Just a bad idea looking for a place to take a dump...… (think fat guy at salad bar +giardia….)

                      Last edited by fairchild; 12-15-2018, 02:55 AM.


                      • PaulSA
                        PaulSA commented
                        Editing a comment
                        Now I have to get that image out of my mind....... Had giardia once after trip to India - not pretty!

                      • svyolo
                        svyolo commented
                        Editing a comment
                        I had it 4 times working in China 2 years. I think this counts as thread drift. Yellow thread drift.