Instruments

[Pbruce]

I really like Brooks’ panel for a Patrol. You have a lot more options with a 4-place. I plan to do something similar To Brooks. I have a Garmin Era 796 which I really like, so that will be installed in a panel-mounted clip. I may not install a round airspeed indicator.

Remember that you don’t really need any instrumentation at all to safely land your airplane, unless you are IFR or night in marginal weather. I think people keep forgetting that. Get an instructor or safety pilot and practice if you forget how. If a 10-hour student can do it, you can too. Although I don’t feel I need backup instruments, the Garmin 796 gives ground speed, gps altitude, gps track and a rudimentary bank angle indicator along with terrain hazards and has an internal battery. I could do a let down in cloud if I had to so it’s definitely good enough for VFR.

I’d like to add one final point: as good as the IPad programmes are (Forflight for instance is very good indeed) the iPad is a pain to read in bright sunlight. My old Dynon 180 wasn’t much good in bright conditions either. The newer Garmin, Dynon, and probably most others give you really nice, bright colours and lots of pixels. It’s just way, way nicer to use in all conditions, and therefor worth the money, in my view.

For economy, I expect I will go with a G5. I saw one today in my buddy’s 185 and it’s so sharp and bright that even though it’s small, I know it’s going to work. I do need to see if a g3X would actually be comparable in price to a G5 plus an EMS. In that case, I would go with the G3X. I’m doubtful that the price would be close though, notwithstanding the point about the cost of sensors. Wow, are they ever expensive!

[svyolo]

The 4 place BH stock panel height will barely fit a 10" EFIS, but only the lower profile types like the newer Dynon's and the newer GRT 10.1. I am pretty sure the G3X fits also. I ended up with an MGL radio and control head, but a Trig transponder, remote only. If the Transponder or EFIS go Tango Uniform, I can tell ATC with the manually controlled radio. If the radio goes TU, I can set the squawk to let ATC know that way. I didn't think I needed a control head for both.

The G5's have a lot of capability, but for only a bit more you can get a bigger screen with the same or more capability. There are applications, like certified aircraft, where the ability to add a G5 is probably a huge time and money saver. I have nothing against them, they are brilliant instruments.

One EFIS and a tablet offer tremendous capability and situational awareness. And redundancy. Pull out your phone and you have another. I have I-EFIS light on my last couple of phones. I have heard rumors (not me of course) of turning it on seeing how it does on a real airplane and it does a fairly remarkable job.

My last job we flew 737NG's and the whole airline flew them in 6-pack mode (steam simulation) mode because the airline still had a few old steam gauge 737's. When the last rope start 737 went away we paid Boeing to flip a switch and switch to EFIS mode. A whole bunch of old timers complained about having to learn something new and suggested we keep flying them in the steam simulation mode.

I think the last person I heard complain was about 3 days after they flipped the switch. Never heard another peep, and these are people for whom complaining is a secondary career.

I can still fly steam, but I complain a lot about it. LOL

[rodsmith]

From pictures I have seen I know a 10" EFIS fits in the Patrol. I have no idea what the size of the stock Bearhawk panel is. I made mine 10 1/2" high from the bottom of the 3/4" cross tube. Two 10" garmin screens fit but it is a close fit at the upper outside corners.

[rodsmith]

For economy, I expect I will go with a G5. I saw one today in my buddy’s 185 and it’s so sharp and bright that even though it’s small, I know it’s going to work. I do need to see if a g3X would actually be comparable in price to a G5 plus an EMS. In that case, I would go with the G3X. I’m doubtful that the price would be close though, notwithstanding the point about the cost of sensors. Wow, are they ever expensive!

I think you will find it is not much more especially with the 7" screen. The 10" screen displays about twice the information so for me would be hard to go with the smaller. That was a point the instructor in the G3X installation class kept making.

[whee]

Avionics are fun to look at and talk about. IMO you shouldn’t be making decisions until you are pretty far along in the build. I bought mine about a year before the plane was done. That was too soon. I had changed my mind several times up to that point and had I waited I would have changed my mind again.

If your going for simplest and lightest then a single EFIS is the answer. If you then start getting conference about single point failures so you ad a second EFIS backup batteries, etc...well then your no longer simple or light.

I like my GRT stuff and if I were to build again and wanted an EFIS I would use GRT again. But if I were building my panel today it would consist of the very minimum steam gauges, an engine monitor and a panel mounted tablet.

[JimParker256]

...But if I were building my panel today it would consist of the very minimum steam gauges, an engine monitor and a panel mounted tablet.

Well, that's how my RANS S-6ES is configured: ASI, VSI, ALT, and the GRT EIS. I ditched the old (non-working) GPS, but kept the RAM ball-mount and used it for my iPad. An Icom A210A and KY-76A transponder complete the panel. We added ADS-B In/Out via uAvionix echoUAT, which is great (and inexpensive).
S-6_Panel_Closeup.png
I was OK with the panel, but one "super-early in the morning" departure reminded me that not having an attitude indicator when it's pretty dark out is not-so-great. At this point, I'm basically planning to remove the ALT and VSI and replace them with the GRT Sport EX 7" EFIS. I'll also have to relocate the warning lights, but that's no big deal.

I actually spent a good bit of time considering just using the GRT Mini instead (moving the ALT over to the VSI spot, and installing the Mini in the open hole), but the cost difference is so small to move up to the 7" screen that I decided to go that route.

As Whee says, it's fun to look and plan...

[Ringo]

Avionics are fun to look at and talk about. IMO you shouldn’t be making decisions until you are pretty far along in the build.

Hey Whee! I've been lurking, reading, and day dreaming about the day when I can eventually do a build. I have never built a plane. I have seen a few times this very statement that you said but from others. My question though is, don't you have to kind of know what you want early on so that you know what sensors and servos you'll need and make sure you put them in while you're doing the build?

[500AGL]

I do advise (as a matter of opinion) that builders always keep in mind their panel during the process. Many installs can be affected or benefited by planning way ahead for what you want to do. Making space for installs, brackets, shelves can be easier with some forethought.

Secondly I encourage builders to always consider the ergonomics of the pilots view. The view, being both inside and outside the cockpit. If the instruments you expect to put in your panel leave lots of extra room.... consider making the panel smaller. If you are filling the panel, consider a) is it all highly desired, and b) is the layout arrangement one that will be super friendly and intuitive to all pilots? Remember there is no need to use the industry standard panel shape from the 1940’s, which was simply the back of the cowl. With a small shape change you may find a better sight picture and layout ability.

Pilots have their own needs and wants, and sometimes a builder can take it “too far” down the “different” path. But more often they just install a standard panel because, well, that’s what it’s always looked like.

pb

[whee]

Hey Whee! I've been lurking, reading, and day dreaming about the day when I can eventually do a build. I have never built a plane. I have seen a few times this very statement that you said but from others. My question though is, don't you have to kind of know what you want early on so that you know what sensors and servos you'll need and make sure you put them in while you're doing the build?

It’s a good idea to have an idea what you want and if necessary install stuff during the build to facilitate that. For example, if you want auto-pilot and for whatever reason want a servo in the wing then you should make sure the wing is ready before you close it up.

On the other hand; I can’t think of any part of the avionics that I installed that would have benefited from being installed earlier in the build. But I didn’t want antennas on the rear fuselage, a strobe or nav light on the tail, a servo in the wing, etc.

[Bcone1381]

If I recall correctly, the 7 inch G3X display would not display the primary flight information plus the engine instrumentation. I think a second 7" display was required.

The common error in making panel decisions is that we keep adding things thinking we "Need" more stuff. To Combat that error, ask yourself "What capability will adding it give me." Often times the answer to that is nothing or even it takes away capability. Don't discount Panel real estate. You can build it without CB all over the place. Open space on the panel gives it a sense of order.

An autopilot adds no capability, but by adding weight takes away performance and useful load. A moving map still requires a back up map, so consider just using paper charts. How does GPS position add capability to VFR cross country?

A COM radio gives capability to land at a tower airport. ADSB gives access to additional airspace like B and C. An attitude indicator and GPS position may add capability by giving you a feeling of peace if flying when visibility is not that great allowing you to go instead of waiting. With an engine monitor, I can tune my fuel injectors and fly lean of peak, reducing Fuel Flow, and then I add capability by flying further into the bush on a tank of gas.

Don't discount portables either. They work good, last a long time, never break, and we can throw them out when they become obsolete. When you buy that panel mount You'll think "It will never become obsolete." Ha Ha. Like Whee says...wait til next year.

[Ringo]

I love flying my '46 Champ because I love the feeling of flying my plane, but when I am able to eventually buy and build a 4 place BH I will most likely add an autopilot. I only add this comment so that someone can talk me out of it. (hopefully this isn't hijacking this thread, but instead maybe adding useful information that the OP wouldn't mind reading.)

My reasons for an autopilot:

• What if something happens to me while my wife's in the plane where I can't fly? Hopefully she'd remember to hit the level button and use the radio for help.
• My mission will be to explore the country. I would love to have moments where I could reduce task saturation a little bit.
• I plan to get my IFR rating in the BH and also fly IFR, and it would be a nice safety backup for wings level

I know electronics will change when I'm ready to build, but as of right now, I really like the idea of 1 G3X with remote mount radio (I'd carry my backup handheld radio as it's useful on and off plane), GTN 650, GNX 375, Garmin autopilot, and a G5 for backup. Maybe one day when this dream does happen, I could buy the LSA QB kit after and put the GNX 375 in that lol! (That's the reason for the second IFR device but with xponder and ADS-B in/out)

[500AGL]

Ringo, it is a sidebar to the thread, but if you don’t already know it’s also a very subjective, and opinionated topic.
I saw absolutely no reason for glass, until I spent some time in one and found the cross over to it was not an issue at all. And the additional features outweighs any argument.
I really had no reason for an autopilot in a “cub-type” taildragger. Until I flew one cross country, with a G3X and GFC500 autopilot. Now I couldn’t build one without. It’s just that good, that helpful. Your workload puttering up through airspace in scuddy weather (like DC) is literally cut in half with a good A/P. Safer, easier, you can fly longer days and still be ready to fly another.

The Bearhawk excels in its ability to be multi-mission; a real cross country traveler in and out of the backcountry. Properly equipping one for _your own_ mission is the best thing you can do.

Maybe Rollie will chime in on his recent trip from Ohio to Idaho and back, and how his panel worked for him.

pb

[Battson]

Welcome to the group, Grant.

You asked about engine monitoring, I would suggest having all cylinders monitored for EGT and CHT. Most modern systems will do that.

[Bissetg]

Thanks Jono, I’m thinking simple at the moment with digital EGT,CHT,MAP,RPM I’m looking at something like a MGL, I like the RDAC concept ... and then an ASI and G5 Ex. I can use an iPad for Nav if enquired.

[svyolo]

I like the RDAC as well. I think the avionics companies ought to make a remote "Air data computer" to get pitot static/remote compass info and send it via wires to the EFIS. Sure would beat running plastic lines all over the airplane.

[BravoGolf]

Advanced Flight Systems offers an 8.4” screen which is a nice size. It doesn’t eat up the panel space of the 10” and is easier on the eyes than the 7”.

[SimonNicholson]

Here is my panel. I am in the process of wiring it up at the moment. GRT EFIS with the EIS behind the panel (I ran out of space to have it as a back up) and a panel mount iPad. The nav and com come out of a GNS430w