Instruments

[Bissetg]

Hi All. I’m new to the experimental scene and very excited to be building a Bearhawk 4 QB kit. I’m a dinosaur so not up with the modern wizardry of instrumentation. My aim is to build the simplest and lightest that I can and with that in mind planning a Garmin G5 experimental with backup battery as flight instrument but uncertain what the best solution for engine instrumentation is. I need Manifold pressure, RPM, oil T &P, as a minimum. I’m hearing some folks are using iPads with Bluetooth connection to senders and others have stand alone or combined solutions. Any suggestions Or comments appreciated.

[zkelley2]

For the price, I don't think you can beat the GRT EIS.

[JimParker256]

One thing I REALLY like about the GRT EIS is that you basically get a "dual display" with that system... It connects (via serial port) to the EFIS to provide graphical display of all the engine data, but it also has a more primitive "dot-matrix text display" that displays the data simultaneously in text (or very primitive "histogram" graphics) form. If the EFIS ever goes "black", as long as you still have minimal electrical power, the GRT EIS will be available to help you manage the engine.
My current airplane has the GRT EIS as its only engine instrument (no EFIS - yet) and I've grown quite fond of the unit. No muss, no fuss – just works.
Just remembered: There is a guy who has developed a graphical front panel for the GRT EIS that looks really slick. He's in the process of getting "production prototypes" manufactured (tough with all the Covid stuff going on) and hopes to have them available for sale late this year or early next. I'm on his "list" as a potential beta customer. If/when it becomes available, I'll post about it here to let everyone know. Should come in WELL below the current crop of offerings from EI, JPI, Garmin, Dynon, etc.

[Rollie]

A Garmin G3X will do all of that, the flight instruments and engine gauges all in one neat, lightweight installation. another nice feature is that, if you want to, you can blue tooth an ipad to it for a second screen. I do that for instrumentation for the back seat in my Patrol sometimes when I have a pilot in the back.

[Bcone1381]

I also am a dinosaur.

I made decisions based on a combination of appearance and proven track record. I installed a G5, an Electronics International CGR-30P, and a round dial airspeed, because of the generous sweep of the needle. Super Cub forum was instrumental in my choosing the gear looking, round dial, CGR-30P. The Patrol has less panel real estate than you have.

A portable of some kind will be used for navigation. I decided on these instruments this time last year. Installing a Garmin remote compass and temp prob generates winds aloft and true airspeed data on the G5. Garmin has since come out with there new 3.125" system, and the Uavionix AV-30 is sharp. Today I'd consider those, especially the round Garmin engine analyzer. The Trig Com radio and xpnder w/ ADSB is very light weight, and great quality. I hope I can get the CGR-30P to retrieve GPS data to provide MPG data.

Al Lux built a great looking panel around the GRT products that is simple also. Maybe he will chime in and show a few photos. Thunder666 also has a nice GRT panel in his RV-4.

Take your time, sift through the options but don't feel you have to include everything the market place offers. Simple is pleasing to me. Building a simple robust electrical system may be lighter and more reliable than a series of backup batteries.

A thread on Batteries by Bob Nuckolls is worth reading. There are lots of opinions out there. I follow Nuckolls for now.

http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?t=16775265&highlight=batteries

IMG_0344.jpgIMG_0421.jpg

[JimParker256]

I love that panel. Clean, simple, yet highly useful! Everything a VFR pilot needs.

[jaredyates]

I agree with Brooks about making a robust electrical system. I did the same, and also installed backup batteries for the Dynon system. The other important consideration is to delay committing as long as possible, and delay actually buying the stuff even longer if you can.

[svyolo]

It is hard to tell what your personal requirements are. For engine instruments, the sensors add up, and will cost about the same no matter what solution you use. G5's and the other small portables are nice, and a great and cheap redneck solution for the certified world. They are a lot of flight instrument in a small and easy to install package.

Dynon, GRT, and MGL all offer lower end EFIS's for 1500-3k, with a lot more screenspace than a G5 or similar. It can double as your Engine instrument, while still displaying flight data. They can also run remote radios and transponders from that touchscreen, as can some IPAD and Android tablet apps on a tablet.

Garmin doesn't offer a lower line of EFIS screens.

The negative is if you have only 1 screen and lose it you lose everything.

I have nothing against using the small screen EFIS. But if you want simple, you can get a slightly larger screen EFIS (7")that will double as your EIS, and can remote tune your radios. That might cost less, be lighter, and easier to install than a small screen EFIS plus a separate engine monitor. That and a tablet or large screen phone and you have a huge bag of info and situational awareness.

[Bissetg]

Thanks guys, appreciate your thoughts. It’s hard for a dinosaur like me to keep up with the pace of change in the modern world of Avionics so great to get your input. As I have no clue how long my “two year” project will take I think holding off is good advice but I’m very keen to understand what others are doing to achieve the simple, reliable, if somewhat basic solution.

[500AGL]

What Rollie said.

Time and time again Garmin has proved its value with its robustness. The first time your iPad App drops off in a critical phase because of a glitch, or temperature, you’ll appreciate it. And I’m a iPad fan, but the next panel will be Garmin.

Simple, Clean, light, and support.

pb

[Rollie]

I would suggest to buy whatever you decide on toward the end of your build. Things chance quickly and every time a new thing comes out the older ones get a bit cheaper. I went to Osh Kosh specifically to compare all the options in a hands on environment, sorry - didn't mean to rub it in that it isn't an option this year. I was open to most brands. What I found was that in my opinion the Aspen would be a great option for refitting a certified panel but didn't make much sense in a new build. The GRT, which I wanted to like, just didn't don it for me, I can't quite remember why, but I eliminated it after talking to one of their reps for a few minutes. It came down to Garmin or Dynon for me. I actually liked the look of the Dynon EFIS a little better. Then I went to a couple of the avionics shops who were there and ended up with one of them designing and building my panel. They pushed the Garmin over the Dynon, saying that although the Dynon price tag was a little less, that by the time you add all the sensors, etc, it would cost about the same as the Garmin. He then explained that the Garmin stuff is all built with the same parts as their certified stuff so, according to him, it is higher quality, or at least a known quality. I still don't know if he was just more familiar with installing Garmin or maybe makes more on it or it was really what he believed. I am very happy with my Garmin panel though.

The one thing I would say was not good about the way I did it was using an avionics shop I found at Osh Kosh. They took a ton of orders there and were extremely busy. It took months longer than they had promised and after they sent me the panel and wiring harnesses they were done. Zero support. They had put several pins in the wrong holes in several connectors and I spent months trying to get it sorted out. Finally found an avionics guy who was willing to go through it pin by pin with a multimeter and we found about 9 pins in various locations throughout the plane that just need to be moved over to the next hole in their connectors. That part wasn't much fun.

[robcaldwell]

I am really happy I went with Aerotronics to design and build my panel. After the panel was delivered, Jason Smith called me to say, "This is where our service begins, what can we do to help?". I can't tell you how many phone calls and email messages I have sent 18 months after I received the panel. They give me their full attention on everything. We are going to calibrate and dial in the AP after I am flying. I asked Jason if he was still up for it a few weeks ago. He told me to take my time and that he was looking forward to it when that time comes.

[Rollie]

That's great to hear that there are good shops out there who provide the service they promise.

[Russellmn]

I'm a LONG ways off from needing a panel, but it's fun to look! I'm currently thinking a G3x and a G5 will be all my panel holds. Along with an iPad Mini for backup nav. I'll run remote radios and transponder, etc... Just want to keep it simple and light. And the remote mounting will allow me to adjust placement for W&B if I want, though there's not much weight there anyway.

[JimParker256]

That makes for a really clean look, and allows fitting a lot more stuff on the panel. But I cannot bring myself to do it that way... I want to be able to use my radio, transponder, etc. in the eventuality that my EFIS were to fail or go offline for any reason. The Trig and MGL control heads are pretty small – Trig fits in a 2 1/4 inch hole (even smaller if you use their specific cut-out), and MGL offers both 2 1/4" and 3 1/8" control heads.

For the same "failure mode" reasons, I really like having the GRT EIS unit on the panel. It's primitive (dot matrix text-only), but provides the critical engine information you need, even if the EFIS quits on you.

[Russellmn]

I may run a single panel mounted radio along with a remote mounted primary. For EIS, Garmin EIS can be sent to the iPad as well for a backup screen, though if the whole system goes down it won't help...

[svyolo]

I would whole heartedly agree with Rollie. Wait till much later in the build, if not the end. The only proprietary stuff that gets built in enclosed structure is remote compass (and maybe remote air data) wiring in the wings. Everything else is either standard wires, or standard air lines.

Dynon's and Garmins main EFIS screens haven't changed in a couple (or 4?) years. Which means they are probably about to change again.

[rodsmith]

I figure Garmin will come out with higher resolution G3X screens like they did with the GTN Xi series. Probably the day after I buy mine.

[Rollie]

With two G3X's either can control your remote avionics. Second G3X probably costs more than a G5, but I'm not sure how much more. Of course if you go that route in a Patrol, the panel will be full and you will have to do remote.

[davzLSA]

Hey guys, I wanted to share something with you all that we are doing in the Corvair world these days. The Corvair is not very easy to lean out without causing detonation. We are using a air/fuel ratio gauge that works off of an O2 sensor in the exhaust port. I know most purpose built aircraft engines are still using the exhaust temperature to do the leaning. Would it make it easier if you had a gauge that directly read the air/fuel mixture? I plan to use this gauge in my LSA. Innovate Motorsports 3918 MTX Series MTX-LPlus Wideband Gauge, Black/White, 52mm It comes with the gauge Its the one recommended for the Corvair engine.

[BTAZ]

Unfortunately, 100LL is known to kill an O2 sensor in short order.

If auto fuel can be used 100% of the time, great!

But if not....

[davzLSA]

Hi Brad, These O2 sensors as used in the Corvair are not simple O2 sensors used in the direct exhaust stream, it is a 5 wire sensor that is 1 inch back from the exhaust stream in the exhaust pipe. That is why it can be use with 100LL. This system is currently being used in the Corvair engines that run 100LL successfully. It may be something worth looking into if one were interested.

[Russellmn]

Another option is to run it close to the head, heat mitigates the effects of the lead killing the sensor...

[500AGL]

Regarding complete panel builds, that’s something that Green Mountain Avionics can probably offer as well should someone desire it. As “we” are a certified shop and Garmin dealer we are used to dealing with mainly certified aircraft, but depending on time frames we may be able to work in some builds for EXP customers.

pb