Side by side Patrol

[Mark Goldberg]

The idea of a side by side Patrol is something Bob and I have been kicking around. It would be a variation on the 4 place fuselage with Patrol wings. No cargo door and the rear cargo bulkhead would move up one bay. Stick with all other 4 place fuselage parts. Only 4 cylinder engines. Bob thinks this plane would not be a lot heavier than a Patrol. The cargo area would be really big for a two place. Bob thanks that area should be accessed by folding the setbacks forward. But maybe we can put in a smaller cargo door like what is on the Patrol.

Ideally, we would make the first one like this after someone commits and makes an order. The kit would be at a good price for someone willing to be the first. Mark

[svyolo]

Mark;
You know the market for what potential customers ask for, more than any of us. For me, a side by side Patrol is called a 4 place, which is what I am building. It will fly without a back seat most of the time.

I can understand those that want to fly centerline ( have have quite a few hours doing so), but I chose a 4 place to carry more stuff. If a side by side Patrol was offered, or a 4 place, i would take the 4 place every time. Same cost to build and fly, but 300-400 pounds more useful load.

I would think a side by side LSA might make more sense. Someone that wants to fly under LSA, but wants side by side. A better Kitfox, or Avid Flyer.

But I will go back to my first statement. You know what potential customers ask for.

[BravoGolf]

Very interesting Mark. Have you come up with estimated weights? Gross weight a little higher than the Patrol, maybe 2200 or 2300? I like it

[Mark Goldberg]

Bob has said 2200 lb gross. Mark

[svyolo]

Mark,
I can understand trying to broaden the market appeal of the BH models. Why not a 4 place Cruiser or in RV-speak, "Rocket". Take off 2 or 3 rib panels per wing, Spring steel gear and wheel pants. You would still stall under 50 mph, but you could probably get a realistic and comfortable cruise speed 15-20 mph faster.

I would bet you could get a significant number of people considering an RV-10 to take a closer look.

I am happy with a stock B model, but maybe there are those out there who want a cross country machine with a high wing.

[svyolo]

Mark,
I can understand trying to broaden the market appeal of the BH models. Why not a 4 place Cruiser or in RV-speak, "Rocket". Take off 2 or 3 rib panels per wing, Spring steel gear and wheel pants. You would still stall under 50 mph, but you could probably get a realistic and comfortable cruise speed 15-20 mph faster.

I would bet you could get a significant number of people considering an RV-10 to take a closer look.

I am happy with a stock B model, but maybe there are those out there who want a cross country machine with a high wing. And maybe some would rather give up 10 knots on the low end, to gain more on top.

[BravoGolf]

Vans Aircraft was hesitant to build a side by side aircraft, but many spouses (my wife included) prefer to sit beside instead of behind the pilot. A SxS Patrol is perfect, especially if I can use the Patrol wings I am currently building. I will be ordering a fuselage kit at the first of the year, hopefully this will be all settled by then.

[Battson]

What would be the advantage compared to a 4-place?

[Mark Goldberg]

It will be a two seat side by side Jonathan. Lighter than the 4 place without the big cargo doors and no back seat.

It will still have a very big cargo area in the space taken up by the back seat. There are comprises made when designing a big, four place plane. Keeping it a two seater will effect how it flies also. Mark

[Bdflies]

I get that some folks prefer the side by side format. If that’s the motivation, then it makes sense.
Just as some build 4 place Bearhawks with removable rear seats, I'd bet a nickel that it won’t be unusual for these "side by side 2 place" builders to add a removable rear seat for -those times- when required. Just saying...

How about Bearhawk Seeker!

Bill

[svyolo]

I definitely understand some folks wanting side by side, or centerline. To each his own. The B model has most of the improvements of the Patrol.

Same cost to build. Same cost to fly. 4 place is 100 - 150 lbs heavier, but has several hundred pounds more useful load. 4 place can you a 6 cylinder engine if you are so inclined.

I can see some choosing a 2 place side by side, but it will cost a sale of a different BH kit.

Maybe a side by side LSA? Needs LSA, but wants side by side?

[nichzimmerman]

Bearhawk Ranger?
Scout?
Partner?

Before I had four kids, I was planning on building a Just Aircraft Highlander and adding a rear seat. This SxS would have been a contender, though if the price point is similar to a 4 place I probably would have just bought that and cut weight as much as possible.

[Battson]

It will be a two seat side by side Jonathan. Lighter than the 4 place without the big cargo doors and no back seat.

I really like the idea.

I am not sure where the weight savings come from, can someone educate me please. Aside from the weight of the door itself, a little interior flooring / fabric, and the seats (which are removable anyway), will there be lighter tubes used? Perhaps a slightly narrower body aft of the pilot's seat?

[jaredyates]

No doubt the lighter engine will help to the tune of 100 lbs. I suppose there may also be some insurance advantage to only being a 2-place.

[svyolo]

If I remember right I think Bob said the door adds 30 pounds, and somebody weighed his finished back seat at just about 30 lbs. You can remove your back seat and save that weight by choice.

If the wings are the same as the Patrol, they are probably a bit lighter than a 4 place wing. But the span would be bigger, so he might have to beef them up or just use B model wings. I would guess the latter. A guess on Patrol wings would be 15-20 lbs lighter than a 4 place.. Another 30 - 40 lbs because of less tubing and interior.

Not including the removable back seat, I would guess less than 100 lbs difference. 70-80?

The kit would cost within a few percentage points of a 4 place. Building and fit out is the same. Same hanger footprint within a foot or two. Same cost to fly. The SXS performs slightly better because of less weight. Carrying the same payload, the SXS should out climb a B model by 5%. If a B model will climb at 1500 fpm with an O-360, the SXS should climb at 1575 fpm carrying the same load.

[svyolo]

I guess I am still confused on the marketing. I can understand wanting tandem or side by side. If the Patrol was the only BH, I can definitely see increasing kit sales by doing a side by side model. But with a 4 place already in existance, including the B with most of the Patrol's enhancements, why build a less capable airplane than the B model, for the same price and performance?

It is like going to the airplane dealer, and asking for a less capable model, but you will pay the same.

From a marketing perspective, I see it canabalizing a few 4 place, and maybe a few Patrol sales. Will it increase sales enough to offset the extra tooling, inventory, complexity at the factory?

[Weldingiron]

Like others, I'm struggling to understand why anyone would choose the side by side Patrol over taking the rear seats out of the 4-Place. That said, I'm certainly no business man. Something I imagine there might be a real niche for is a side by side LSA. LSA serves a market all its own and currently only have a tandem option with a Bearhawk. In the end, I support most any modification options the factory wishes to offer and hope it does well!

[Nev]

An option may be to offer the 4-place with no rear baggage door, and no rear seat.

[alaskabearhawk]

That is the original BH configuration. Baggage door is an option.on the original plans. Bearhawk Aircraft offers it as standard equipment.

[AKKen07]

This makes more sense to me as well.