ADSB solution?

[Pbruce]

Does anybody know if there is an ADSB solution on the market for price sensitive VFR-only types which will interface with the US system as well as the Canadian (international, satalite based) system? Mandatory ADSB has an indefinite reprieve in Canada at this time but it’s coming.

I already have a Garmin Era 796 which I really like and plan to use in my Patrol build. I’m thinking of a Garmin G5 and possibly a Garmin autopilot, which the G5 will run. I prefer a separate EMS, and then I just need a radio and transponder/ADSB. My knowledge is very hazy regarding ADSB/transponder products, especially what might work with my other stuff. Obviously, I would prefer to avoid duplication, and I don’t want to buy a big full-featured system. I just want to travel unimpeded and fly safely at night or in conditions of vague horizon, hence the G5. I can comfortably fly an RNAV approach on the Garmin 796, although I never would except in case of emergency. Thanks in advance

[Mark Goldberg]

Hello Pat. In a general way - you should wait until the very last to buy any electronic gadgets. New stuff comes out all the time and often cheaper and more capable than what was available previously. Mark

[rodsmith]

My understanding is the Canadian rules are going to require an antenna top and bottom, may be an issue for US pilots wanting to fly in Canada.

[TimTall]

Here's the solution.... https://uavionix.com/tailbeaconx-launch/
Looks like it will be a while before we need it up here but this system is compatible in the US as well. Probably what i'll go with when i get to that stage. Just need to figure out how to build a mount for it on the rudder now....

[Pbruce]

That looks like it might be the ticket. Thanks Tim

[svyolo]

I kind of got the impression that add-ons like the Uavionics stuff was more for aircraft that are already equipped with avionics and wanted a simple add-on. If you are building a panel from scratch, why not just go with a Mode S transponder?

[m.mooney]

The tailbeaconx, as linked above, looks pretty nice but you would want to use their AV30 to operate the transponder portion of it. So, skip the G5 and install the AV30 as your Attitude instrument. But, like discussed already, there will most likely be many other options in a year or two, I would wait. Uavionix just launched the tailbeaconx in the past couple of weeks and while it looks phenomenal, I’m having a hard time picturing it mounted to a Patrol’s rudder. Sit back and enjoy the show as avionics innovation continues, then pull the trigger right before you need it for install.
Mike

[TimTall]

I took a closer look at their press release. They will have a wing mounted version by the end of the year. Rudder mounting problem solved.

[Pbruce]

Pretty cool. Never seen this before. Even smaller than the G5 to my eye. Great price, but as a primary source for airspeed and altitude, I m not sure, since it has no spreed tape. I wonder if it would run the Garmin Autopilot?

[JimParker256]

On their web page, they clearly show a speed tape display on the AV-30 PFD display. It is even animated so you can see how it shows V-speeds, etc. It is, however, configurable - meaning you can turn it off if you don’t like it. Download their “Pilot Manual” and “Installation Guide” at the bottom of 5he AV-30 page for complete details.

[Pbruce]

What kind of decisions around the autopilot do I have to make before closing out the wings? Superficially, it seems that the roll servo would have to be mounted, which could influence the autopilot selection, which could in turn influence the EFIS selection. I’m just guessing though. Are these valid assumptions?

[Battson]

This sounds like a change of topic, you need to start a different thread if so.

[Bcone1381]

My response does not answer your question about Canadian future satellite based ADSB. I provided this because I saw a lot of similarities with my panel selection and your thoughts.

This panel has a Trig COM radio and Xpndr. The Xpndr is ADSB out, with Trig's GPS position source. The Trig products have seen very good acceptance within the Super Cub arena I think because of quality and similar issues with small instrument panels.

At OSH the Trig Booth had a Transponder Bundle special going on. I felt like the pricing was very competitive. (My panel planner software did not give me an option of making both Trig control heads round. Both can be installed round, or the shape yo see on the left)

The instrument on the right of the G5 is an Electronics International CRG-30P Engine Monitor. It fits in a standard 3.125" hole like the G5. The G5 will integrate with an Autopilot as I'm sure you know. It also has a Magnetic Compass sensor I mounted in the wing, and a OAT sensor that enable it to give True Airspeed and wind presentation. The G5 can receive GPS source from the Garmin Aera line of portable GPS's. I chose this because of a consistent desire to keep things simple. A G3X is nice, but just didn't seem simple to me.

USA has ground based, so only needs a bottom antenna. I don't know how to integrate a top antenna in the future. I trust Uavionix will have a solution by then.





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[rodsmith]

Love your panel Brooks, very simple but everything you need. Starting to rethink my plans for two large screen G3.

[Bcone1381]

Thanks Rod!!

[Pbruce]

My philosophy and my perceived requirements are very similar to yours, Brooks. Thanks. You went one more step beyond the speed tape provided on the G5 and added an airspeed indicator. I probably won’t do that although I do prefer it slightly. I will be using the area 796 and might be installing an autopilot. Not sure on that one.

I didn’t know that the g5 would provide heading with remote compass. I was under the impression that you had to go to a G3X for that. I could get by with ground track as provided by the G5 since I could fine tune my heading with the whiskey compass if I’m on vectors. If heading is available though, I would install it. I can get track from the 796.

[svyolo]

I wonder why Canada didn't just adopt the same standard the US did. I know the far North doesn't have many people so they don't want ground stations, but for the same reason, who cares about ADSB coverage up there. I would bet there are many places in the US with pretty spotty coverage.

[zkelley2]

They did. 1090ES is the worldwide, to include the US, standard.

978 is US only.

[Battson]

What zkelley said, Canada is going with the rest of the world... it's the US who are going it alone.

The UAT system is a lot more intensive and needs a lot more ground-based infrastructure and costs a lot more, at this stage it appears most countries are going with the 1090 system to start with.

[svyolo]

Right after I typed that I wondered if the US was the outlier.

[Battson]

Here's the solution.... https://uavionix.com/tailbeaconx-launch/
Looks like it will be a while before we need it up here but this system is compatible in the US as well. Probably what i'll go with when i get to that stage. Just need to figure out how to build a mount for it on the rudder now....

I reckon that would look good in the wing-tip... But you'd have to pull a cable through before you closed the wings.

[Bcone1381]

My philosophy and my perceived requirements are very similar to yours, Brooks. Thanks. You went one more step beyond the speed tape provided on the G5 and added an airspeed indicator. I probably won’t do that although I do prefer it slightly. I will be using the area 796 and might be installing an autopilot. Not sure on that one.

I didn’t know that the g5 would provide heading with remote compass. I was under the impression that you had to go to a G3X for that. I could get by with ground track as provided by the G5 since I could fine tune my heading with the whiskey compass if I’m on vectors. If heading is available though, I would install it. I can get track from the 796.

Airspeed........I have a secrete I'll share about the airspeed indicator, but you have to keep it between you and me. I like big round gages due to ease of scanning the wide sweep of a needle but I'm not using that one in post #10. When I was flying gliders I fell in love with a Winter 510 degree needle sweep airspeed indicator they commonly use. The wide sweep on this gage at approach speeds is insane! I think I'll be able to decipher two knots at a glance with less effort than the G5 airspeed numerical indications. I just like a needle....old school. I don't apologize for my many years flying behind steam gages.

I stumbled across one for sale on eBay and sent it to Paul at Cumulus Soaring to have him remark it using Patrol Speeds. I played around with Altimeters too, but like the panel layout with the CGR-30P. A GPS altitude will be my backup.

Heading....the Garmin magnetometer interface for the G5 is a Garmin GMU11. I mounted it out near the wingtip. I think with the compass input the G5 allows either a Heading or Track selection. (Think is the key word) The Temp input requires a Garmin GAD13 OAT prop interface with a Davtron C307PS Probe. That Davtron probe is Garmin approved and way less money than the certified Biz Jet probe Garmin offers. I had Aircraft Spruce make up a wiring harness, then added the OAT probe. It gave me the ability to See how professionals made it. When I changed things around, I used it as a reference, plus followed Garmin's YouTube channel to fabricate the new harness. It was very enjoyable. I never thought I'd be attaching AWG24 wire to pins in a D-sub connector and making up a harness. Delightful!!


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[marcusofcotton]

But Brooks, how will you know if you're going 30 or 130k???

😎

[Bcone1381]

I wonder why Canada didn't just adopt the same standard the US did. I know the far North doesn't have many people so they don't want ground stations, but for the same reason, who cares about ADSB coverage up there. I would bet there are many places in the US with pretty spotty coverage.

This is kind of a boring long post. I probably should not even post it. But, maybe some would like some History of ADS-B.

ADSB is not a western European or American invention/necessity.

China led the way believe it or not.

China has a very large area of inhospitable terrain with very sparse population density. When I say it inhospitable, I mean widespread Grid MORA (terrain clearance altitudes) altitudes over 18,000 feet IIRC for hours at a time flying at Mach .82. This Himalayan Terrain is higher than western Colorado and the size of maybe CO, AZ, UT, NM, CA combined. Napal is arguably China in some folks eyes, and that where the highest peak in the world are.

Up until the early 2000's all air traffic had to go around it this high terrain area due to no services not even communications services. But Qantas Airlines wanted to cut across it to save an hour flight time between Sydney and western Europe. The cost for a third world country to install radar and VHF communications in the some of the highest, roughest, most remote terrain then upkeep it where no roads or airports exist was not prudent. So Qantas and China worked together to pioneer Satellite based ADSB and SatCom for a route that today is called L-888. Back then we called it just ADS. Plus we had to have Controller Pilot Data Link Communications which is like sending Text messages to ATC using satellite.

After Qantas was flying L-888, UPS got approved, then I think FedEx was next. Before L-888 I recall that we flew north out of Hong Kong to Beijing then made an almost 90 degree turn west to avoid the area. You just cant appreciate that area with escape routes preplanned for single engine operations, and the distances between suitable airfields until you've flown it. Seeing it is something else. We would have to Log On as we approached the L-888 entry point. If the Log On did not work out, I forget what happened....I don't recall not proceeding, but that may have been the procedure.

So, I'm thinking we don't understand the cost to install and maintain ground based equipment in inhospitable, uninhabited Canadian backcountry. Maybe also committing to a system that can see everything to ease search and rescue is deal breaker to some of the Canadian Bureaucrats.

Cost is one factor driving ADS-B rule changes. The cost difference to manufacture, install, and upkeep a single radar sight compared with ADS-B with an onboard gps data report is astronomical. Its a better system with more information to make better decisions. So I'm on board.

[zkelley2]

I think you need ETOPS for a portion of that area to.
The solution of course is to fly 4 engine jets and not worry much about escape routes and etops.


I could be wrong but I thought it was ADS-C for L888 not B.
China ATC is so worthless anyways you just need to assume you're see and avoid. And thank god for TCAS.

[Bcone1381]

Yes, ETOPs (extended Twin Engine Ops normally used over oceanic routes when suitable airports are more than 60 minutes away) was a player on the L888 route.

I just checked my Jepps...The lowest Grid MORA altitudes over an 800 nm section of the route is 18,500'. The highest was 23,000'.