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**Frank** · 10-27-2018, 05:57 PM

Hello to all. I too am new here and wondering much the same thing. Not that I want a cheap airplane, but can't afford a kit. I mean, I don't mind spending my wife's money but need to be more subtle than that. Start out with smaller expenditures, save the big ticket items for later.

For instance, I see the LSA tubing package for 3,300.00. What it would cost to buy uncut tubing from Aircraft Spruce or some other vendor. Can't answer that question for myself, as I don't have the plans yet or a list of materials.

Planning to start in a year when I change careers (retire) and will have more time than money. No doubt will buy many prefabricated components along the way (thank you Bearhawk Aircraft Parts Store), and who knows, my financial picture may improve...

By the way, here's why I like the Bearhawk LSA: terrific performance with 100hp. Living at 5800 ft. I figure this plane will mostly solve the density altitude problem. "Simple" like a Cub but better performance, design, cleaner, roomier. It would suit me fine for cross-country travel. And it's quite beautiful.

Hey Brian, can we do it?

**sbmurphey** · 10-27-2018, 06:40 PM

With so many variables, that is hard to say. If you have access to some of the tools of the trade and a local source for tubing, I bet you could get by cheaper.

Quick disclaimer, I am no longer a 100% scratch builder. Rather it is about 60/40. I am nearing the stage of a deluxe quick built kit and I am in around $25,500.00 + tooling. The numbers for wheels, avionics, covering and FWF are not factored into the above equation.

There are several ways to lean that number down if your scratch build everything. However, if you consider the cost of tooling and your time, it is very hard to beat Mark's price on the kits. My personal goal was to try and get a flying airplane for something near the price of the deluxe kit without factoring in tooling or my time. (A little optimistic...but, it was my goal to try for.)

I bought several items from Avipro and have been very satisfied as they are a high value items. Purchased items include:steel ribs for the tail, landing gear and hyd. struts, fuselage tubing kit. Items purchased from other kit builders that have stopped building include: quick build wing kit, stringers and a factory engine mount.

The total cost for a kit at the time I started building was unobtainable for me. I started small with the tail sections as I had some experience welding in the past. An older friend gave the best advise as I was considering staring the build.."If you want an airplane to fly, save up some money and buy a flying airplane..If you want something to build, knock your self out and get started, but building is never the cheapest way into aviation."

If you follow Bob's instructions in the manual and start by scratch building the wings, I believe that will lead to the best possibility of building a lower cost aircraft. My conclusion is that your labor is the primary point of savings for scratch builders. In the Bearhawk line, the wing is by far the largest investment in labor with a relatively small investment in metal.

**Frank** · 10-27-2018, 07:10 PM

"Two years ago, I priced the tubing at $1179.86 from Aircraft Spruce."

Thanks Stephen. And add 50% or more to account for rejects.

Thanks for your other observations as well. Also starting to think the wings would be built first... "possibly" an easier learning curve... easier to store the wings while building the fuselage than vice versa... can use some wing building time also for welding learning.

Part of my plan is to have a fall-back position: when I buy the plans that doesn't mean I have to build anything... when I build the first wing that doesn't mean I have to build the second wing... when I screw up the first fuselage... oh well...

**brian121** · 10-27-2018, 07:31 PM

Thanks guys that's the type of information I am looking for.
The next question I have is a Bearhawk LSA a good first project or is it a more complicated design to build?
Thanks again.

**rodsmith** · 10-27-2018, 08:02 PM

I would not say scratch building any version of Bearhawk for most people is a good first project. Not that complicated but a lot of work requiring a lot of skills But first timers have done it. you just have to be dedicated enough to get whatever training you need whether it's welding or sheet metal work etc. There have been two first time builders in my EAA chapter that bought Zenith 750 kits and both had them in the air in under two years. But if you are like most of us on this list it is not a plane that inspires you. All 3 Bearhawks are exceptional designs and in my mind worth the extra work that they take to build.

**johnb** · 10-27-2018, 09:25 PM

I'm scratch building an LSA, and started with the wings as Stephen mentioned above. To keep initial costs down, I started with 3 sheets of 4x12 .020 aluminum and was able to build almost all of the wings ribs. I've since been buying material as needed to keep progress moving, a sheets at a time. As others said, not being cheap, just spreading out the cost. I suggest you buy the drawings and study them. Creating a bill of materials is a good way to familiarize yourself with the design and formulating the right build approach for you.

Good Luck. It's a great design and the build had been very rewarding.

John

**svyolo** · 10-27-2018, 09:35 PM

If you have ALL the tools, and the experience, or willingness to learn everything, you can save money by scratch building. If you have none of the tools, I doubt scratch building will save you much in the end.

The other very considerable expense that most people don't budget for is shipping from ACS or Wicks. I bought a quick build kit. I don't know how much I have paid for shipping, and it would scare me to add it up.

I have paid a lot more in shipping, that the quoted price for tubing from ACS. A LOT more.

There is a great, very true saying, that the best reason to build an airplane, is because you really want to BUILD an airplane.

I guess trying to scratch build an airplane to save money, would be like getting married to save money on eating dinner out.

**svyolo** · 10-29-2018, 12:26 AM

There are definitely situations where scratch building makes a lot of sense. But I think there are more situations when it doesn't.

I have been building things since my age was in single digits. It is what I have always done for fun. I think my next project will be an LSA as well. I might do a scratch build, or scratch build with a little cheating. I am not a machinist, and don't intend to buy thousands, or tens of thousands, in tools to build a few parts for a few airplanes.

**stinger** · 10-30-2018, 07:16 PM

Hi Guys, Most of you may know by now I am a scratch builder I like thinking it out . I started building my LSA with my old friend. We were going to build two but life got in his way and I needed to finish my project. I bought two items from Avipro co. Wing strut, attach fittings and a few bearings, that's it. I am an A/P I/A with 22yrs on military aircraft. I also have friends with machinist skills. Having said this I agree with others, Bearhawk aircraft is not good for a first time scratch build, not if you ever want to see it fly. I bought my basket engine and rebuilt it bit by bit 4yrs of labor $9,000 with a total of $ 27,000 for the entire project. Build a kit and you may still stretch and develop new skills. There are too many good intended projects out there. Finish what you start ! Good luck Stinger

**Frank** · 10-30-2018, 10:17 PM

If not the Bearhawk LSA, what would be a good first time scratch build aircraft?

**BTAZ** · 10-30-2018, 11:20 PM

I didn't keep a close tab on what my scratch build cost. From AviPro I purchased the tail rib set(would have required making a lot of different "one time use" form blocks), the fish mouthed fuselage tubing kit(minimized the amount of "extra tubing"), the tail stinger(would have required heat treating), the windshield and the brake master cylinders.

I also purchased the nose bowl and wing tips from Bob.

So nominally $4K of "Pre-fab" parts and( if I was silly enough to add them up) I would guess between $10 and 15K of other materials to build the air frame to the "Quick build" stage that comes in the kit.

There are also certain significant fixed costs whether you scratch or kit build:

Stits covering was somewhere around $2500 in materials,
Used wheels/brakes plus a set of new tires/tubes will be $750 min,
Pulleys, turnbuckles, rod ends and such will be over $200.
Tail flying wires can be from $250/set if you re-purpose production wires and make the "Bob ends" up to $800 or so if you buy a custom set.
Roughly $500 in paint for the wings.

So realistically plan on $20 to 30K prior to the firewall forward and panel.

I think that is one of the best things about these planes. It is easy to pick/choose what you want/can fabricate from scratch and what you want to buy.

Some thoughts:

I decided early on that I wouldn't hesitate to purchase tools to help with efficiency. Trying to scratch build with a bare minimum of tools would be discouraging. For example, to efficiently build and skin the two wings at the same time, I expect I now have over $1000 in Clecos.

Plan on $500 for the tooling needed for solid riveting(gun, sets, squeezer, squeezer/dimpling dies, etc.)

I think it would be very difficult to do without basic machining tools(mill and lathe) or reliable access to someone with the tools and knowledge.

It would be difficult to a lot of the sheet metal work without a 4' shear and brake. Note this isn't big enough for the wing spars so you'll need to find an appropriate brake for a day or so of use.

As far as build difficulty, if you already have a solid background in "making high quality stuff", know how to read/translate blueprints in parts, and are willing to ask questions and qualify/apply the resulting advice, there isn't really anything that difficult in building the plane.

I built mine in a bit over three years. I averaged 40 hours/week the first two years and somewhere around 80 hours/week for the last year. I would guess I had over 5000 hours in by the time I was at the "quick build" stage of a kit. Take the difference in cost between the Quick build kit and the materials and you can see the hourly rate is about $4/hr.

If you aren't excited about being paid $4/hr to learn new skills while building an airplane, buy a kit.

**jaredyates** · 10-31-2018, 06:48 AM

Originally posted by Frank View Post

If not the Bearhawk LSA, what would be a good first time scratch build aircraft?

if you are building for the fun of building, then I'd say go for the LSA. In a project with this level of financial and time committment, you'll have many years of second-guessing if you don't build what you really want to build. I thought about building something like a Pietenpol but realized that it would take just as much time as a Bearhawk.

Bob designs his airplanes to fly and perform well first, which does mean they are more difficult than something like the Zenith 750/Sonex/RV-12. But his designs can be built, rebuilt, and repaired in a simple workshop for decades to come, without dependence on any big institutional jigs, machines, or molds. If you value your time at all, and if you value the cost of materials, tools, and waste fairly, then the kit is not as expensive as it first sounds. I think most folks who see the cost of the kit as a turn-off are undervaluing the cost of bringing a project to the kit stage, something I also did at first.

**Mark Goldberg** · 10-31-2018, 09:22 AM

I appreciate everyone's comments detailing the benefits of our kit versus scratch building. Most builders attempting to scratch build way underestimate the amount of time it takes. It surprises me that someone as talented as BTAZ would take as many hours as he describes. His $4 an hour number is right in line with what has been proven over the years MANY times

But I wanted to add a data point to the discussion. A few days ago I was talking with a scratch builder who had bought the tubing package, tailspring, and little else from Bearhawk Aircraft. He only had a prop remaining as the last big expenditure. He and his partners are at $41,500 before purchasing the prop. Just an FYI. Mark

**Mark Goldberg** · 10-31-2018, 07:57 PM

Yes Frank. That is my understanding. For another data point - my LSA built from our QB kit including a comm and transponder and using Oratex - I have about $61,000 total invested apart from my labor. It takes about 800 hours to build a LSA from our QB kit. Mark

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What is the lowest price to build a Bearhawk LSA?

What is the lowest price to build a Bearhawk LSA?

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